June 2nd, 2007 06:19 PM
Asking the dealer the proper way and reading the paperwork carefully should keep you legal. also , check you states laws before buying. Giving you BIL the cash to purchase would be a legal way as well, since he would be filling the paperwork out.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
June 2nd, 2007 06:22 PM
I have given a Gun as a gift to my Father after i bought it 4 months in advance due to it being on sale i had to register it in my name within 10 days as state law requires
Then when he got it for Christmas he had to fill out the same purchase permit i did and then i transferred owner ship to him and he registered it
only thin in Michigan you have to make sure to do is register it to you within 10 days as required by state law so if you register it on same day as purchase you can do with it as you wish after that be it same day or next day
June 2nd, 2007 06:40 PM
I would buy the gun, gift wrap it and give it to my brother as a gift as people have been doing for hundreds of years. I could certainly "straightface" that one in court if anyone chose to take me there. A judge, IMO, would laugh them right out the door, as long as your brother can legally own a firearm.....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
June 2nd, 2007 10:37 PM
I was in a similar situation not too long ago when I was buying a gun for my brother. My brother is 18 and in Kansas you can legally own a handgun. But the only catch is he has to be 21 to buy from an FFL dealer. I talked to a guy I know who works for the ATF. He told me to buy the gun and sell it to my brother. He said to some it might seem like a straw purchase, but it really is just a legal exchange between two adults. It sounds like you buying this gun as a gift for your brother would be no different.
June 3rd, 2007 09:36 AM
New York City's Mayor Bloomberg may be able to offer you a job making straw purchases in Virginia so he can sue, and try to shut down, VA gun stores.
June 3rd, 2007 11:30 AM
I am sure you will be treated just as fairly as Sarah Brady was... ;)
A controversy occurred after Sarah Brady recounted in her book that she had purchased a Remington .30-06 rifle with a scope and safety lock at a Lewes, Delaware, gun shop, for her son, James Scott Brady, Jr., "as a Christmas present" in 2000. According to Delaware Justice Department spokeswoman Lori Sitler, this purchase was apparently a "straw purchase". Under the gun laws, her son, as the intended recipient of the weapon, should have undergone the required background checks, although he has no criminal record.
According to a quote in the New York Times, "We hope that it's innocuous and there's been no laws violated," said James Jay Baker, chief lobbyist for the National Rifle Association. "It's obviously interesting that Sarah would be purchasing firearms of any kind for anybody, given her championing of restrictive guns laws for everyone."
Ms. Brady was not indicted by any grand jury, state or federal, in the incident.
I will make one comment as to relying on the FFL dealer to interpret laws for you. I wouldn't... they often do whats in THEIR best interest rather than perhaps of yours.
For example, last fall I bought my kid (Who was 20 at the time) an AR. I ordered it off the distributors site using my Credit Card for the required percentage (he doesn't even have a credit card to have used) to get it shipped (balance to be paid at time of delivery) to come into one of their dealers ( a local place, who asked me to order it this way as they did not have one in stock). So I took my Son with me to pick it up and complete the sale. I told them I was buying it for him and wanted him to fill out the 4473. They refused. They wanted the same person on the sales receipt (me) to fill out the 4473. By my interpretation that is wrong. However they refused to do it any other way. So I took possession of it and filled out the 4473. Then presented it to him as a gift. But... in my way of thinking they should have, when presented with the fact I was buying it for him, taken his information and run the NCIS on him.
Last edited by cphilip; June 3rd, 2007 at 11:42 AM.
June 3rd, 2007 07:13 PM
The instructions on the ATF Form 4473 seem quite clear to me:
The above does not address possible restrictions under state or local laws, of course.
1. Actual Buyer
: For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner)
. You are also the actual buyer if you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES
: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 11.a. Please note, if you are picking up a repaired firearm for another person, you should answer "n/a" to question 11a.
June 3rd, 2007 09:52 PM
Sure are alot of arm chair lawyers here.
The best way is go to the BATF website & read the laws concerning a "Gift" for yourself. BATF has a pretty good site & ALL the federal laws are posted in plain english. I've been there a few times. It sure beats getting a dozen differing opinions on a forum.
NRA Life Member
S&W M65 LadySmith 357Magnum
Ruger SP101 3"bl. 357Magnum
June 3rd, 2007 09:57 PM
The first question on the 4473 12 A is: "are you the aqctual buyer for this firearm? Warning, You are not the actual buyer, if you are aquiring this firearm on behalf of another person.. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you"
Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan
NOW........seeing I work at one of the largest Gun Shops on the east Coast, and I've been a FFL as well, I would tell you up front, , that you should just give the money to your Brother OR, when the time comes for payment, simply say, "it's my ttreat" have your brother do the 4473 form, and pay for it, as it's perfectly legal to do so. Otherwise, you're going to hand over a Gun YOU OWN, without a legal transfer of ownership from you to your brother.via the dealer's books. it's still considered to be a Straw Purchase as you've bought the gun for him, as you're going to phyically hand him the gun <see my point> Just pay the money, or have it paid up front between you and the dealer.. simple stuff..
In NH, two people can transfer a rifle, shotgun, or handgun betwen them both, by way of a Bill of sale..both parties keep a copy of the sale, for future record keeping for that "just in case" time, this is VERY TRICKY, as if you're selling it to somebody you may really not know, and if he has a criminal record........you're basically screwed......The right way is to take it to a dealer..........pay his transfer fee and take your name off it in every legal way. Ma has a "blue card' system that allowed you to transfer guns between two Ma Residents.. The dealer and the NICS is in place to safeguard the buyer and the seller.
Example: what if you were privatly buying a handgun from somebody, and it turned out to be stolen? just food for thought here..
Last edited by CLASS3NH; June 3rd, 2007 at 10:19 PM.
Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll
June 4th, 2007 09:05 PM
All the consternation over this is unbelievable.
If it is legal in your state to do a FTF transfer, it is legal to give a firearm as a gift. You aren't buying a gun for someone else, you're buying it for yourself to use a s a gift.
The problem arises if the person you give it to can't legally own a firearm.... which would still be a problem whether it was a firearm you've owned for years or one you bought yesterday.
Sara Brady had a problem I believe because IIRC NY state doesn't allow FTF transfers without going thru a FFL, not because she bought a rifle to be used by her son. From the report posted she didn't commit a straw purchase, which is knowingly buying a firearm for someone who is not legally allowed to possess such.
This really isn't that tough.
You would have to know or have reason to reasonably believe that the firearm was stolen in order for it to be a crime. The OP isn't talking about strangers met on GunBroker, he's talking about a family member.
Originally Posted by CLASS3NH
Last edited by tanksoldier; June 4th, 2007 at 09:11 PM.
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
June 4th, 2007 09:48 PM
Wow... this thread is making me dizzy.... help!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
June 4th, 2007 10:30 PM
here in the wonderful state of Kalifornia, your guns are registered to you. Transfer of a firearm must be done through an FFL. That means if you want to get it ahead of time you must have your handgun safety certificate and submit to the background check and the waiting period. Then when you give the gun he must go in for his background check/transfer/waiting period with his HSC. You pay about 25bucks for the transfer.
If new hampshire is the same its best to take him with you and pay for "His" purchase saving the FFL transfer fee.
June 4th, 2007 11:37 PM
All I'm saying in my posts is to just go buy the gun for your Relative........nothing more........nothing less......we do it all the time for Customers..This way, it's HIS/HERS..given as a gift....with the other Relative paying for it..
I'm getting dizy from all the discussion and I'll not say another word about it.. You do what is best, whom ever it may be.. Just gave my perspective from being on the FFL, Retail side of the counter.....
Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll
June 4th, 2007 11:46 PM
1943 - 2009
I believe this thread has run its course so will be closed.
Thanks to all who contributed.
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
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