A brief reminder that concealed carry is a lifestyle, not a fad

This is a discussion on A brief reminder that concealed carry is a lifestyle, not a fad within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HOLYROLLER Lima...Dont mistake disagreement for digression. In my view debate is a progression, not a digression. If everbody is in agreement nobody ...

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Thread: A brief reminder that concealed carry is a lifestyle, not a fad

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOLYROLLER View Post
    Lima...Dont mistake disagreement for digression. In my view debate is a progression, not a digression.

    If everbody is in agreement nobody is learning.

    I dont believe its just a matter of "semantics". The original implication is that those who choose to CC will, or at least should have some significant change in the way they operate day to day (change in lifestyle). That simply is not true for many, regardless of why (time, resources, etc).

    2A / guns etc. has not become an all encompassing life decision, in fact it hasnt changed much. Aside from the ammo trips to Walmart and the time spent on this forum, everything has stayed the same and is likely to for the foreseeable future.
    When I was talking about digression I was talking about your post I was talking about people debating the meaning of the word "lifestyle."

    I agree with you, debate is progression because people are learning.

    Now, I think you read a little more into my original post than was really there. Never did I say that drastic changes would have to be made.

    I still, for the most part, wear the same clothes I wore before I got my permit to carry. I've added a few longer shirts and some good belts, but other than that, nothing has changed in my wardrobe.

    I kept my same job. I kept all of the same friends. True that I GOT another job but that had more to do with money and with "free range time" than anything else.

    I went to the range more and did a little more practicing but absolutely NO ONE on the outside noticed one single change in me as a person.

    I didn't move to a different neighborhood, I didn't start driving another car. Nothing REALLY outwardly changed... it was an inward change.

    life-style: n. A way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group.

    My "lifestyle" changed because my attitude changed. That's what I'm talking about.

    I'm not saying that people's whole lives have to change, if that were the case I think concealed carry would have gone out of style a long time ago.. People like their lives the way they are, that's why they want to protect it.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Holy I just have to disagree with you , not so much with what you said , but with responsibility . When one chooses to learn and carry a means of self defense ( not only guns ) then it must become a focus of life , and to an extent all of life has to be viewed thro the " prisim " of that ability and means . Once anyone decides that " I WILL NOT SUBMIT " be they male , female , carry a knife , gun , or hell a popcorn maker ... then its a change in mindset that alters the entire life .. Short version here and if you want , then start a thread on mindset changes that are possible / responsible , but honestly you are off base ( imho ) here . The thread is valid in that once you decide to take personal responsibility for your own safety it is a lifestyle . I have been on courtrooms where i cannot carry , as well as other places , when i exit the wife and i make a short scandle by entering a restroom and blocking the door while i re arm some what descretely ... i allways wink at all onlookers , both male and female btw when that is forced on us .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  4. #63
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BushidoMarine View Post
    You could have satisfied both your saleswoman instincts and you CCWer instincts by getting her to buy a copy and READ Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". I would have tried to get her to read the book and come back a week later for me to give her a short quiz on the book to make sure she had read it cover to cover. If she reads the book and has a lick of sense, (kinda doubtful, given her statement but most people have the capacity to learn) she'll know that a firearm is not a glorified noise maker. Then and only then would I proceed in selling her the appropriate products and/or training, based on her level of comfort, state of mind, etc.
    Lima, perhaps you could have the gun store buy a couple of Ayoob's book and display them on top of the glass counter (so when the question comes up again, all you have to do is pick up the book and hand it to the customer - without having to walk all over the place and loose the momentum of the sale [you'll help both the customer and the store by selling the book - think ROI]), kinda of in this fashion:




  5. #64
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOLYROLLER View Post

    If everbody is in agreement nobody is learning.
    You're so obviously not a Scientologist...

  6. #65
    Member Array xercise2nd's Avatar
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    holyroller,

    Consider this. A person is born a sinner, grows up unsaved, and then the light of the truth of the Word of God comes into his (I will use the gendered pronoun in the general sense for both genders) life. He perceives his sinful state and recognizes that he stands condemned in the courtroom of divine justice. But he also recognizes that One stands willing to take his punishment. So he repents and believes on the Scape-goat of God and receives his divinely communted sentence, has his "record" expunged. He becomes a new creation.

    Now, that new creation starts to change the way he lives. Call it "life style" change. Whatever. He stops doing some things he heretofor had done because he realizes they no longer are expedient to do and even that they were contrary to the new life he now had been given. He now has added responsibility to reflect the new understanding he has. He will continue to grow in grace, and grow in his knowledge of Him in who he now believes. And as this occurs he will be sometimes visibly and sometimes invisibly different from those who have not had this adoption into the family of God.

    The analogy can be drawn that a lifestyle change is occuring in the above example as well in the example of one becoming responsible for his own-self protection. Granted the former example is paramount for you, and for that reason may be why you choose to reserve the concept or term "lifestyle" change for that instance and not lessen its impact by applying it to concealed carry. For those who have not that revelation, however, concealed carry does cause its adherents to reconsider many aspects of their lives and make changes which they consider "lifestyle" changes.

    We see for example, changes in language. People are no longer people. They are sheep or they are sheepdogs. Or they may be GGs or BGs or wolves. The list goes on.

    Changes in dress has been mentioned, as have: changes in places frequented, awareness of surroundings, political pursuasion on issues, friends and others associated with, etc. etc.

    I appreciate the posts by Limatunes and will not fault calling changes we CC folks make "lifestyle" changes. They are surely changes we do necessarily make, concommittantly with and subsequent to the decision(s) we make in coming to the conclusion that we will carry a concealed weapon.

    As the child of God is a work in progress, so is each of us who carry a work in progress. You know that He will fulfill the work He started in the His own. But how far the CC person will progress is an unknown, or whether or not he will progress, or even what the ideal CC person would look like is a topic for some CC-utopian visionary to suggest. Suffice it to say there are changes in the life styles of both, yet at different levels, which continue over time.

    Parenthetically now, to continue suggestions to Limatunes on the theme of "if I could live your life for you..." may I suggest writing for Concealed Carry Magazine or some such periodical? You really have a talent and it's easy for a reader to identify with your vantage point, despite being of the other gender! Go for it, Girl!
    "Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." --- John Adams
    (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President
    Source: Oct. 11, 1798; Address to the military

  7. #66
    Member Array xercise2nd's Avatar
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    Just trying to help a fellow member of this board understand in terms I hoped would make the issue a bit clearer.
    "Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." --- John Adams
    (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President
    Source: Oct. 11, 1798; Address to the military

  8. #67
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    xercise2nd, I appreciate how you have made that connection.
    I can see how the application could be similar. Obviously not in every aspect, of course.

    While I appreciate the connection made I have to put in a brief disclaimer here despite my own thoughts and beliefs.

    We have seen that certain topics (religion, politics, the like) do not fair well in places like this, so if this becomes a religious debate it will be shut down. Let's try to keep it on topic.

    Thanks

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    We have seen that certain topics (religion, politics, the like) do not fair well in places like this, so if this becomes a religious debate it will be shut down. Let's try to keep it on topic.

    Thanks
    Lima - was that your first official public act as a Moderator?

  10. #69
    Member Array airbornerangerboogie's Avatar
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    I'll give an amen and applaud

    I get the same look from my family...my wife just seems to look amused at my rig and chuckle relating my carrying to when little boys would play Cowboys and Indians. When she's in a more serious debating mood, I get the "In 36 years of marriage, you never needed a gun, why now?" Her biggest fear is that I'll go War Vet with flashbacks and shoot up the neighborhood. It's like you said there is a lack of understanding or even a willingness to and it's mainly based on how our PC Media, Movies, TV, and the written word have portrayed the gun carrier.
    “Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.” James Dean
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  11. #70
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xercise2nd
    You know that He will fulfill the work He started in the His own.
    You have totally lost me.


    Anyway, guns...

  12. #71
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    When I think of "lifestyle" the way Lima used it, I think of it as a loose term. I personally agree with the way Lima used it here.

    Call it what you will, but when you decide to carry you need to make conscience changes in most (if not all) aspects of your life.

    The changes range from the way you dress to the way you act and perceive others around you. Add things like knowing your state CCW laws by heart, knowing where and when you can carry, proper firearm handling and firearm training. We haven't even discussed weapons and holsters yet. Most importantly is the decision of whether or not you are willing to take someone else's life. For some this decision is easier than for others.

    A "lifestyle change" to me means that this is something that you will be doing for the rest of your life. I have decided to be a CCW'er for the rest of my life. I am no longer someone that looks to someone else for protection. I have taken the responsibility to protect my family. For me this is a life changing decision. Not just a weekend hobby.

    I believe the "lifestyle change" (or whatever you may call it) needs to take place between your ears first. From there it can trickle down.


    I have been working on this post all day. Kept getting called away. I just posted and saw all of the posts since the one I was originally to follow. If you would just mentally file this post after jdlv4_0's last post, that would be great.
    Last edited by BIG E; June 3rd, 2007 at 11:08 PM.
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  13. #72
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    I enjoyed reading this post (as I enjoy most of Lima's posts).

    I have a few thoughts about it, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I was alerted by a fellow employee to help a woman choose a self-defense gun.
    <snip>
    The woman surprised me by saying, "Oh, I don't want to kill anyone. I just want to scare them or shoot them in the leg maybe."

    Both my colleague and myself exchanged worried looks.

    What gun do you recommend for a person who wants only to intimidate or scare and not actually use for its intended purpose?

    Much to our relief, she left the shop without a weapon.
    I realize that it's difficult to come up with some perfectly scripted way to handle such a situation; it's one of those times when the ideal thing to say doesn't come to mind until 15 minutes after the person is gone.

    I would prefer if someone could gently, politely inform the woman that through no fault of her own, she has fallen under popular misconceptions about defensive firearm use -- starting with how "easy" it is to just pick a limb to shoot on the bad guy and shoot it to disable him.

    The plain simple fact is, these people should not be turned away, if at all possible, because they're almost there! They already came in curious about being able to defend themselves. All they need is for someone to gently peel them free of the boloney they've been fed through the t.v. for so long.

    My hope is that you will keep them interested, keep them encouraged, and turn their thoughts in the right direction. Suggest that they come to a class; offer a discount if need be. Use facts and common sense to help them see the reality of defensive action and preparedness. There is no reason why that woman could not be told -- politely, of course -- that what she said amounts to popular myth, and that there is actual knowledge of the real way it goes that she could benefit from.

    Tell her that it's encouraging that she has come in search of the means to defend herself, and that like so many things, there is more to know than she thought there was to know; but you'll guide her to that knowledge, and teach her how to go about further learning it for herself.

    It would certainly help to stock the NRA handbooks on personal defense inside and outside the home (two different books, respectively). Offer them at dealer cost. The information is precious, and worth getting out to the would-be goodguys even without making a profit. (And even if you put a markup on the books, at least get them stocked in the store!)


    A few hours later, a gentleman entered the shop and started browsing past the cases. ...

    He said, "Yes, I've never fired a gun in my life and I'm looking at getting a lesson in firearms and my permit to carry and also buying a good carry gun. What would you recommend?"

    That's kind of like asking someone to help them pick their favorite color.
    Well, there's really no need to take him literally. Understand that what he was really saying was, "I don't know what I need to know, so please help me." He wasn't saying, "Pick the gun I ought to prefer."

    Perhaps you should have just taken it from there and said, "Okay, let's begin the learning process by which I will help you determine what works best for you.

    From the sound of it, it seems you did just that. But perhaps it would help you, and what sounds to be your frustration level, if you reworded in your own mind the query these people made, and proceeded based on what you understand they were really asking.


    The concealed carrier in me (which usually dominates the saleswoman) wanted to say, "Well, sir, some things in your life are going to change once you make that decision to carry a gun." I settled for a happy medium between the two.
    I think you should have just said exactly what you wanted to say. There is nothing wrong with laying the truth out for people who are laboring under misconceptions. Simply tell them that there are lots of things they have to know and consider if they're going to seriously keep a gun for personal defense -- especially if they plan to carry it on their person in public -- but that it is not beyond them to learn and incorporate what they will have to. And if you feel up to handling the task, offer yourself as a guide.

    You know you wanna.


    She proceeded to cuss me out for thinking I was some hot-shot who carried a gun for absolutely no good reason and that if a real threat were ever to present itself I'd be on the floor cowering like everyone else and my gun would do me no good and I was a fool for thinking that having a gun would make any difference.
    Don't go jeopardizing your job with her (keeping quiet was a good plan), but if you ever want to go at it with her, ask her what she plans to do if anyone came in to rob the place or do mayhem.

    Point out that while a gun is not a guarantee that you'll be just fine, at least you'll have a gun. What will she have to fight back with, besides pleas for mercy?


    She said, "I don't see why anyone would need a gun."


    She shook her head and spat a few more obscenities at me before she walked away.
    So that they don't have to beg for mercy.

    This woman sounds like a total imbecile. Tolerate her, stay out of her way, but don't let yourself care about her, that's my unsolicited advice. And beyond that, don't make the mistake of using force to defend her life, unless it's simply a byproduct of defending your own.

    Think about a pocket digital recorder to keep concealed and running the next time she unloads on you like that. Maybe she has no idea how crass she sounds. Maybe the owner needs to hear it. Wouldn't you like her gone? I sure would.

  14. #73
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    Good thread...WOW!...did this expand...good food for thought...good dialog...

    ret
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  15. #74
    Ex Member Array HOLYROLLER's Avatar
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    Redneck Repairs...Well stated as usual friend, I understand and appreciate your perspective. I guess xercise2nd is right in that the "prism" through which I view life cant be traded for another. So gun / defense matters will always take a back seat.

    0.02...LOL, correct sir...not a scientologist.

    xercise2nd...Thank you, your analogy spot on and greatly helped its intended audience (me) and was appropriate for the subject.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by airbornerangerboogie View Post
    I'll give an amen and applaud

    I get the same look from my family...my wife just seems to look amused at my rig and chuckle relating my carrying to when little boys would play Cowboys and Indians. When she's in a more serious debating mood, I get the "In 36 years of marriage, you never needed a gun, why now?" Her biggest fear is that I'll go War Vet with flashbacks and shoot up the neighborhood. It's like you said there is a lack of understanding or even a willingness to and it's mainly based on how our PC Media, Movies, TV, and the written word have portrayed the gun carrier.
    That's just not fair of her. And I'd bet that if you spent a moment's thought you could come up with a number of things you could ridicule about her -- maybe she puts her hair up in rollers, or likes to set out silly "good" china when people come by that she shouldn't care about impressing.

    It's not fair of her to stand in judgment of you making a mature, reasoned decision -- particularly one made with a view toward keeping you, her, and your family safe.

    And if she wants to talk about the things you discover "after 36 years of marriage," you could bring up the idea that after that long, she's questioning your sanity and self control. "Honey, is this really all the confidence you have in me, after 36 years of marriage?"

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