Seeking info on the early years of CCW/RTC

Seeking info on the early years of CCW/RTC

This is a discussion on Seeking info on the early years of CCW/RTC within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello all, Congrats on the name change. It has been a few months since I dropped in last, and I was unaware of the change. ...

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Thread: Seeking info on the early years of CCW/RTC

  1. #1
    Member Array Pyro's Avatar
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    Seeking info on the early years of CCW/RTC

    Hello all,

    Congrats on the name change. It has been a few months since I dropped in last, and I was unaware of the change. DC sounds better than CC (IMHO, of course!)

    Anyway, since I last dropped in, the forum that I spend most of my time on, www.canadiangunnutz.com, has added a Concealed Carry sub-forum, and I am a moderator there.
    In Canada, there is no "shall issue" permits at all.
    In theory, there is an Authorization To Carry, type 3, but it is extremely difficult to obtain. If you are not a high ranking politician, or judge, it won't happen.

    Naturally, I am trying to change that.
    Right now, even though many Canadian shooters would like to carry, they do not believe it will happen, so they simply have no interest in trying to make it happen. Which of course means that is how it will stay.
    As Henry Ford was quoted,
    "If you believe you can, or believe you cannot, you will be right"

    So what I am looking for here, is historical info on the early years of the CCW debate in the US. If I can show that 20 years ago, it was a huge uphill battle to get CCW in the first few states, then perhaps some people will realize that doing is better than complaining.

    If you can provide links to articles on the debates, public opinion polls at the time, and news items, etc. , I would very mcuh appreciate that.

    Somewhere recently, I saw an article on a governor or police chief (I forget what the title was) that had originally been against CCW, but has since come to realize that it works well as a crime deterent.
    Anything along these lines is welcome also.

    Thank you.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    First off, you must understand that CCW has been a right of our citizens since the beginning. It has only been in the latter half of the 20th century that politicians felt they had the right to "clarify" the Constitution. I will readily admit to knowing nothing of Canadian history. Ours is based on ejecting an overbearing monarchy and establishing democracy. (Although recently democracy is pushing toward dichtonomy.) We are a nation of free people, we know it and believe it. We don't take any crap (although that is up for debate currently). So the daunting task you undertake is to change the core beliefs of your people. They MUST believe that they have the right to defend themselves, they must BELIEVE that that are not ruled, they must BELIEVE that the government works for THEM! It is NOT the other way around. Only when these statements are true, can change be made. Good luck in your journey, I feel that although you get it most of your country does not. It will be a long road, we suffered it for over a hundred years. But we made the change when it was simpler. Today the trend is toward socialism and government control, they bribe you with health care. Would the people of Canada give up free health care for their rights? SACRIFICE. COURAGE. That is what your people need to display. I do not doubt your convictions...but WILL you change a nation? I hope so.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array INTJ's Avatar
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    This link is discussing pretty much what you are looking for
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...879#post392879
    "Beware of the man who only owns one gun. He probably knows how to use it."

  4. #4
    Member Array Pyro's Avatar
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    This is sort of the stuff I am looking for:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry

    http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php


    I wasn't paying attention to the early days of Concealed Carry in the USA, but I sort of remember a lot of media crap when Florida brought in CCW. What I would like to find is editorials that look back at those early days, and admit that all the dire predictions were wrong.


    Oh, I should probably add, that when I mention the "early days", I am refering to the last 20 or 30 years, not the 1700's
    Last edited by Pyro; June 26th, 2007 at 06:44 AM. Reason: added last paragraph.

  5. #5
    Member Array Rebel Till Death's Avatar
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    im going to join there, i know a couple of people who have gotten authorization to carry prhibited handguns here in ontario. some advice, get to know your police chief. its pretty much up to him/her, they will call the cfo and the cfo will ask for his input. the police cheif will either say yes or no, and the CFO will issue the authorization. The "reason" they used for their license was "for the preservation of human life".

    Dave
    People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    Pyro,

    The point I was trying to make was not the 1700's or 1900's. What I am trying to tell you is that there has to be a BELIEF that it is your RIGHT. We established that right at the outset of our Great Nation, you are just beginning to establish this mindset. No matter when it happens the concept must be there. Your government, established on the British concepts of government, does not acknowledge that you have these RIGHTS! Take a look at the UK today, and look at the current trend of gun rights in your own country. They follow a similar path. You have a LONG road to travel up there, I can only pray you guys pull it off.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

  7. #7
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    This graphic might be useful (or it might not)...it is from the handgunlaw.us site:

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/right-to-carry-history.gif

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    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon1 View Post
    This graphic might be useful (or it might not)...it is from the handgunlaw.us site:

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/right-to-carry-history.gif
    Ehh sort of. The right existed up until teh 1930's and was legislated away, this picture shows the re-establishing of those rights.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

  9. #9
    Member Array Erich's Avatar
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    I sure was lucky to grow up in Indiana . . .

  10. #10
    Member Array Pyro's Avatar
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    Free American,

    I certainly believe that I have the right to defend myself.
    This is why I am working towards re-establishing the ATC program in Canada, after it has been supressed for so long.

    My thinking is that if I can show other Canadian shooters that our US cousins had to work hard to re-establish their CC rights, then our guys won't feel it is in vain.

    I'm still looking for useful info, send what you can.


    Rebel Til Death,
    If you are not already a member of CanadianGunNutz, consider joining. I am known as Tootall on CGN.
    Please send me a PM, either here or there. Thanks.

  11. #11
    Member Array Rebel Till Death's Avatar
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    go to www.nfa.ca they have all kinds of articles on CCW and they are introducing a ccw bill which probably wont be passed, but its a start.

    heres a good read -> http://www.nfa.ca/content/view/236/1/
    People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

  12. #12
    Member Array ttpete's Avatar
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    Pyro, I wish you well, but you will have a far more difficult time in Canada. You don't have the basic human rights enumerated in the same way we do, and your parliamentary system of government is far less responsive to the will of the people. Our executive branch is run by one person, the President, who is elected every four years. Yours is run by the party in power, who picks the Prime minister, and there is no set term. Basically, you vote for a party. We vote for a person. Our elected officials are much more directly responsible to the voters, and the voters DO influence them.
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    Opinions expressed here are based upon Michigan state law ONLY. Other state laws may differ. Know and observe your local laws.

  13. #13
    Member Array Pyro's Avatar
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    yeah, thats all good to know, but I'm still looking for specific articles and interviews from the era.

    If I can find a governor or police chief that originally was hard against CC, but has now come to see that it works well, that is a powerful arguement in my favour.
    I have read such an article, but cannot find it now.

    BTW, why do several posts here state that you have the "right" to carry, when 2 states still do not any CCW, and several others have somewhat/very restrictive rules?
    And most of those that do have a shall issue policy only got that in the last 10 to 20 years?
    So that sort of goes against the "We have the absolute right to..." line.
    Not trying to pick a fight, it just seems to me that it hasnt always been so clear-cut.

  14. #14
    Member Array Pyro's Avatar
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    This is the sort of thing I am looking for. I saw it posted on CGN.

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic..._A1_hTeny75637


    Armed and Licensed: Concealed carry law hitting mark

    SHERRY BROWN / Tulsa World



    By CLIFTON ADCOCK World Staff Writer
    7/1/2007
    Last Modified: 7/2/2007 6:07 PM

    Ten years later, officials say gun-carrying citizens responsible, deterring crime.

    If the number of concealed-handgun license holders is any indication, robbers may have to worry about getting more than stolen goods during a heist.

    With an increasing number of state residents legally packing heat, more robbers may be taking away some hot lead.

    More than 54,000 Oklahomans are licensed to carry concealed handguns under the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, said Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. That number is up from around 31,000 in 2000 and 15,081 in 1996, after the first year of licensing. Once approved, applicants are licensed to carry concealed weapons for five years. After five years, they are required to renew their application.

    In the beginning, some people thought a wave of shootings by license holders would occur, but those fears have proved to be unfounded, Brown said.

    "There's very little of that, quite frankly," she said. "Most people don't want to hurt each other."

    Former state Sen. Frank Shurden, who sponsored the bill that led to the law, said he had tried to get the bill through the Legislature for several years but that fears of more shootings and of a more dangerous work environment for law enforcement officers held it back.

    "They didn't have confidence in law-abiding citizens like I did, but they do now," said Shurden, a Democrat from Henryetta. "They claimed that every fender bender would be a shootout."

    Shurden said he is pleased with the law's results more than 10 years after it went into effect.

    "They (license holders) have to be good, upstanding people. That's one reason it worked so well," he said.

    "I've always been of the opinion that when good, law-abiding citizens are armed, we're all safer. I'm real satisfied with the way the law is working."

    Robert Welch, a Tulsa concealed-weapon license instructor, and Tulsa Police Officer Jason Willingham both noted that there have been instances in which a license holder has foiled a robbery or other crime.

    Last November, a man who Tulsa police say had just committed a burglary, stolen a car and fled from police crashed the car and then accosted a bystander with a knife. The victim, a concealed-handgun license holder, pulled his weapon on the man, prompting him to flee.

    In March 2006, a customer with a concealed-handgun license shot an armed man who was attempting to rob a supermarket near 91st Street and Memorial Drive.

    This year in the Tulsa area, there have been three shootings -- one fatal -- by people who have concealed-carry licenses. Police say the two shootings in Tulsa were sparked by traffic altercations that became physical and ended with the license holders shooting people they said had physically assaulted them.

    In the first shooting, which occurred at 18th Street and Boston Avenue in April, police say a motorist who had to stop for a pedestrian shot the pedestrian's friend during a resulting altercation. The man who was shot was treated at a hospital and released. The motorist was charged with recklessly handling a firearm and has pleaded not guilty.

    On June 10, police say a retired security guard fatally shot a man during a road-rage-sparked confrontation in a parking lot in the 1900 block of Riverside Drive. The retired guard told police that he feared for his life when the other man verbally and physically assaulted him. He has not been charged with any crime.

    In Muskogee last weekend, police said a pastor who holds a concealed-weapon license shot a man who, along with some juveniles, tried to rob his church's fireworks tent. The minister said he feared for his life and that of the teenager who was watching the tent with him.

    The shooting victim was arrested in connection with the burglary attempt after he was released from the hospital, police said.

    Willingham said that, in their duties, most police officers rarely come across concealed-handgun license holders.

    "Most people who go through the trouble of getting a concealed-carry permit are not committing crimes," he said. "By and large, the people with concealed-carry permits are not the ones we're coming in contact with."

    Welch agreed.

    "Most goofballs and hot heads don't think to go and get a permit," he said. "Mostly, it's people who are law-abiding in nature."

    Brown and Welch said increased exposure to terrorism, war and violent crime through the media may play a role in why more people are arming themselves.

    During classes applicants must take before they can obtain a license, they must show that they know how to shoot and properly handle a firearm.

    They also are instructed on how to tell a police officer -- should they come into contact with one -- that they have a concealed weapon.

    "Do we worry? No," Willingham said. "We know people with concealed-carry permits are not the type of people out there committing crimes. Your gang-bangers, armed robbers -- they're not the ones going through the class and paying the fee."

  15. #15
    Member Array Pyro's Avatar
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    Found what I was looking for.



    The Concealed Handgun Law: Ten Years Later

    Published: 1/6/2006

    By Commissioner Jerry Patterson

    When the Texas Concealed Handgun Law took effect in 1996, pundits and naysayers predicted anarchy. Any minute, there would surely be mass violence as armed Texas citizens began roving the streets settling arguments with gunfire. Certainly, several proclaimed, within a year there would be blood in the streets as Texas returned to the days of the Wild West.

    Ten years later the facts paint a different picture. Texas under the Concealed Handgun Law isn’t the Wild West, but the Mild West. No recurrent shootouts at four-way stops, no blood in the streets. Quite the contrary, Texans are safer than before.

    But why are we safer? Why did the fears of the naysayers fail to materialize?

    One of the reasons I authored Senate Bill 60, the Concealed Handgun Law, was because I trust my fellow Texans. Contrary to opinions expressed on almost every editorial page across the state, I knew that when law-abiding Texans’ constitutional right to keep and bear arms was restored with the passage of S.B. 60, they would exercise good judgment and behave responsibly.

    Ten years later, and the statistics continue to prove the point.

    Since the passage of the Concealed Handgun Law, the FBI Uniform Crime Report shows an 18% drop in handgun murders, down from 838 in 1995 to 688 in 2004. And a 32% drop in handgun murders per 100,000 population, down from 4.5 murders per 100,000 Texans in 1995 to 3.08 per 100,000 in 2004.

    In 2000, on the fifth anniversary of the Concealed Handgun Law, the National Center for Policy Analysis issued a report that indicated Texans with concealed carry permits are far less likely to commit a serious crime than the average citizen.

    According to the report, the more than 200,000 Texans licensed to carry a concealed firearm are much more law-abiding than the average person.

    The report illustrated that Texans who exercise their right to carry firearms are 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for a violent offense. They are 14 times less likely to be arrested for a non-violent offense. And they are 1.4 times less likely to be arrested for murder.

    H. Sterling Burnett, a senior policy analyst at the NCPA and the author of the report, concluded:

    “Many predicted that minor incidents would escalate into bloody shootouts if Texas passed a concealed-carry law. That prediction was dead wrong,” Burnett said.

    With 247,345 concealed handgun licenses active in Texas as of December 2005, the number of law-abiding licensees has had a positive effect on the crime rate.

    Texas Department of Public Safety Uniform Crime Report indicates the overall crime rate in Texas has continued to drop over the past 10 years. In 1997, DPS reported 5,478 crimes per 100,000 Texans, based on a population of 19,355,427 Texans. In 2004, with almost 3 million more Texans, the crime rate is 5,032 per 100,000.

    The effect of the Concealed Handgun Law has been so positive, it has converted some of its most outspoken initial critics.

    John Holmes, former Harris County district attorney, wrote to me several years after the passage of the law.

    “As you know, I was very outspoken in my opposition to the passage of the Concealed Handgun Act. I did not feel that such legislation was in the public interest and presented a clear and present danger to law abiding citizens by placing more handguns on our streets,” Holmes wrote. “Boy was I wrong. Our experience in Harris County, and indeed state-wide, has proven my initial fears absolutely groundless.”

    Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, shared this view. “I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened,” White told the Dallas Morning News. “All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman. I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert.”

    To the supporters of individual liberty and the constitutional right to keep and bear arms, this outcome is no surprise. However, the Concealed Handgun Law isn’t just about personal safety. Perhaps even deeper than its roots in constitutional freedom, the Concealed Handgun Law is about trust.

    And after ten years, the Concealed Handgun Law is a shining example of what happens when elected officials have faith in their fellow Texans.

    The legacy of Senate Bill 60 is grounded in the concept that our government should place its trust in us, not the other way around.

    JERRY PATTERSON is the 27th Texas Land Commissioner and author of Senate Bill 60 the Concealed Handgun Law.

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