Undercover LEO vs. Permit Holder Shooting
This is a discussion on Undercover LEO vs. Permit Holder Shooting within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Sig 210
It takes two at least two folks to make a "road rage" incident. If one of them refuses to play, ...
June 10th, 2007 10:26 AM
It doesn't take two to tango!
Originally Posted by Sig 210
Not true in my case. I was in MO, driving in the slow lane, a guy was coming down the entrance ramp and I was going to move over for him, but there was a guy right next to me, so I hit the gas to give him the lane. Don't ask me what he was thinking was going on, but the next thing I know him and his wife are yelling and flipping me off, I did not respond because I was too busy trying not to get hit, they were actually trying to hit me!!! First I slammed on the breaks in the middle of STL doing 70mph, they got in front of me and tried to stop me on a 4 lane highway, I would have been dead for sure. So I swung around them and took off, doing 110 to get away from this nut, slowed down about a mile up and he was back behind me in a few minutes. I called 911 on my cell and told them what was going on. Not once during this did I do anything to this guy, speeding up to let him into the lane in no way could have come across as anything else! We went back and forth like this for 10 miles, finally I got in front of him again, he kept blocking me and then slowing me down trying to get me to stop, I hit the gas again and went over 100mph to get out of his sight and then exited, I saw him pass the exit, the whole time on on the phone with the dispatcher telling her I have no other option but to drive faster, they couldn't get a cop to me during this, not until afterwards, don't know what ever happened to the guy. This is #1 of 2 when I wish I was armed, I would have felt a little more safe.
A few years prior to this I was in WI driving down HWY50 at about 1am, fog so thick you couldn't see but 20 feet in front of you. A car pulls up next to me and starts matching my pace, I was only going about 35 in a 55 because of the fog. Next thing I know this guy is moving over into my lane, pushing me off the road. So I slowed down, he slowed down, I speed up and he speeds up, the whole time slowly moving into me like hes trying to push me off the road. He gets more and more aggressive so finally I decided I had to take off, this scared the SH*T out of me because of the fog, but I figured he would have stopped if I did, and I didn't know what the hell he would have done then. So I speed up and he is actually chasing me! I knew where I had to turn off at and it was on the left side of the road, so I moved over to the left, and started to slow just enough so he would move to my right just as I came up on my turn off, I slammed the breaks on and turned and he slammed his on but too late, couldn't make the turn and I was home free. I could have been killed or killed someone else driving that fast in fog, if I had been armed I would have stopped my car on the side of the road and if he stopped and got out I would have done what I needed to do, but because I wasn't I put my self and others at risk.
I'm not going to say that this happens often, or that I have never returned the bird, but in both these cases I was so damn scared I did nothing prior or after the fact to instigate these two people, and had I been in that mans shoes, the one who shot the officer, based on what I read in the article, I would have done the same thing. I know what it feels like to be trapped and not have a way to defend your self, considering his wife and kids were in there with him, that undercover should feel lucky to be alive, because if all i knew was some crazy had a gun pointed at my family his a$$ would have been DOA!
June 11th, 2007 10:48 AM
Scott, the second incident was just made for a quick PIT maneuver. If he'd done that to me, he'd have wound up in the ditch before he could blink. If it's dark, just turn your lights off, and he'll have a really hard time anticipating what you're doing.
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Opinions expressed here are based upon Michigan state law ONLY. Other state laws may differ. Know and observe your local laws.
June 11th, 2007 12:01 PM
This is totally Monday-morning quarterbacking, so I hope you won't take it wrong, but...
When I'm trying to merge I really wish that people would not slow down or speed up to try to make it "easier" for me. I know they're trying to help, but that really doesn't help. It is easier for me if they just maintain a constant speed so that I can do the merging that I'm supposed to do. If their speed is changing, either faster or slower, then it makes it harder for me to gauge their speed so that I can adjust my speed and merge safely.
It is possible that he had decided to speed up so that he could merge in front of you, and he interpreted your speeding up as a deliberate attempt to not let him in.
Of course, this does not--in any way!--justify his response. I'm not saying that, and I'm not saying that you did anything wrong. I'm just suggesting that there are other ways that he might have interpreted your decision to speed up.
June 11th, 2007 08:02 PM
The problem is your assuming that the guy is a good upstanding person. Just because he has a permit doesn't mean he may not be an a-hole. Maybe not. We don't know for sure. I suspect he was though or he would not have been flipping anyone off especially while carrying. As I said before though they are both guilty because they both participated in the escalation of the event.
Originally Posted by packin_glock
Last edited by Alien Nation; June 11th, 2007 at 08:08 PM.
“You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
June 12th, 2007 09:51 AM
I'm in MN and have been watching this closely.
The key Facts we know are this.
1. CCW permit holder shoots a cop multiple times.
2. CCW permit holder walks out of police station with no charges.
Cops do not like it when cops get shot. If there was ANY possible way to keep this guy in prison they would have. To shoot a cop and walk free is completely amazing. Most places I'd think they would make up charges to get the "attempted cop killer" off of the street.
We'll likely never know the true story, but there had to be some sort huge fact they are hiding on this. Something like the cop was drunk, witnesses saw the cop draw and threaten first, or the cop admitted that he drew his gun first just to try and scare them. But with the blue wall and protecting an "undercover" cop's identity we'll likely never know the real reason.
June 12th, 2007 10:12 AM
I also believe this is a LEO power trip gone bad. (NOT A BASH...I trust NO ONE.) More incidents like this will either weed out or calm the bad apples of the bunch.
Originally Posted by Free American
John 15:13 - Greater love have no man, than he who is willing to lay down his life for a friend. (Let's just pray we BOTH come out alive)
If the guns kill then pencils misspell words!
June 12th, 2007 12:53 PM
I think that if someone on the road does something crazy that risks my safety as a motorist, I have the right and responsibility to honk. For example, if someone is inching over in to my lane (on purpose or accident) then I should/can honk at them to let them know. This does not mean I have little or no self control. If this individual takes personal offense to my use of my audible safety device which came as standard equipment on my vehicle, and he/she may decide that violence and or intimidation is necessary. If I cannot escape (as Mr. Treptow stated he could not) I will defend myself if I deem it necessary. Especially if my children (if I had any) or wife were in the vehicle. I can not afford a physical altercation when they are present.
What should first be proven is whether or not the officer was officially "stoping" Mr. Treptow. If this were the case then he would have used his vehicle lights and or siren. If he did not do this, then the fact that he is an officer should only hurt his defense. Meaning, an officer should be able to control himself on the road. If there was a legitamate traffic violation, and he stopped Mr. Treptow, and Mr. Treptow fired upon him. That is a different story.
June 12th, 2007 02:11 PM
Absolutely, you are right, and I thought about that. Actually I failed to mention, the guy on my left was trying to move over into my lane as well to exit so I was kind getting sandwiched and just made the choice to speed up rather then go even slower, I was already going pretty slow, as I was in the slow lane and didn't know where I was going. Regardless, like you said, he had no reason to act that way, I seriously, as an adult, never been scared like that before.
Originally Posted by denverd0n
As far as the PIT idea, LOL don't know I i could have pulled that off in my little car, he was in a large truck.
June 12th, 2007 04:50 PM
I have a CCW permit and am a former LEO. Yet I'm constantly aware of the fact that if I display my weapon, I will probably be judged guilty until proven innocent, for all practical purposes.
Originally Posted by PapaScout
Thus, I drive in a much different, more restrained manner than I might otherwise. Having a weapon carries with it an increased personal responsibility for doing everything reasonably possible to avoid having to display it.
June 12th, 2007 05:06 PM
It seems to me that the officer had a greater obligation to defuse the situation him being a PEACE OFFICER after all. He could have done this simply by SHOWING HIS BADGE, which he did not do. That struck me as funny from the beginning. Also some people will not allow you to defuse the situation no matter what you do. A smile and a wave could be considered "disrespecting" them. Not enough details to form a good opinion yet.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
June 23rd, 2007 10:09 AM
911 transcripts obtained
The folks over at twincitiescarry.com went ahead and requested the transcripts from the 911 calls on this incident. From my initial reading, it appears to support Treptow and his wife more than the officer in question. Treptow certainly did the right thing in calling right away and winning the race to call 911. His wife seems credible in the transcripts that she was in fear for her life when the officer pulled a gun on them.
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