How Easily One Can Be Disarmed - Page 2

How Easily One Can Be Disarmed

This is a discussion on How Easily One Can Be Disarmed within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; peacefuljeffery, The way the thread is going is because I specifically guided it that way. Because the story was told to me second hand, I ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 39

Thread: How Easily One Can Be Disarmed

  1. #16
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    peacefuljeffery,
    The way the thread is going is because I specifically guided it that way.

    Because the story was told to me second hand, I am unsure when the police were called. I know they WERE called, and while I know my shop and its employees I'm sure they called before very long and their actions were a result of waiting for the police to finally arrive. They had no evidence to support the detaining of the two, after all, acting suspicious is not, in and of itself, a crime, and if the two had been detained by the employees and it was found they had no record, charges could have been pressed against the store and the staff for all manner of strange things.

    I believe the staff did what they felt necessary to avoid a confrontation, and apparently it worked.

    ccw9mm is right though, while gun shops seem to be a less targeted than other places, that doesn't make them immune to crime.

    It is, however, encouraging to see how the potential of an individual carrying can strike fear into someone's heart.

    A few weeks ago I was the only one working the gun counter. I was taking some guns back to the range and when I returned there were two men standing at the counter, one was laughing and acting childish and though I could not hear what he was saying his friend stopped him immediately and said, "Man, don't play around like that. Everyone here carries, man, and they don't mess around. You make a fool of yourself and your butt (to put it nicely) is getting shot. Let's go, man." He looked up at me and said, "Man, she's probably even got a gun. Let's go."

    Little did he know, but no matter what they were talking about or what the friend was saying, it's refreshing to note that someone wasn't taking the idea of someone else having a gun lightly.

    As far as answering my own questions is concerned.

    Am I as careful with my concealment as I should be? To be brutally honest... no. At times at the shop I won't even put on my cover garment till I'm in the door and then I open carry around the range and really don't care if it shows while reaching for things or anything like that. I probably could watch it more while I'm there.

    Out and about in other areas I'm generally very good about my concealment. I wear shirts that don't print. I make sure the wind doesn't catch my clothing. I try to make sure I don't give away the element of surprise.

    Does my holster stability to ensure it can't be taken easily? Well, this one does.

    My old holster was a piece of junk and recently I purchased a very nice belt holster. While it has no retention strap or anything like that, it pretty much needs to be pulled straight up and out. Same with my drop holster, anyone grabbing from the side is just going to get my belt and me coming with the gun and that gun isn't coming free unless pulled straight up.

    As far as a plan goes?

    If I feel anyone grabbing at my waist or gun from behind, I'm grabbing his wrist while bringing my elbow back, HARD into his chest, stepping forward, turning and drawing on him.

    If he gets my gun somehow, well, then it's H2H with a knife as I don't generally carry a BUG gun. I always carry my Kershaw folding knife and while it's little it will do the job. I'll probably hate it so much more than I'd ever hate shooting someone, but if I had to I would cut.


  2. #17
    Senior Member
    Array enigmaone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    englewood fl
    Posts
    1,055
    Excellent post, Limatunes, very informative, Thanks for sharing.
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  3. #18
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,627
    Nothing like a good holster and situational awareness, as you and your husband has stated.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  4. #19
    Member Array OfClanMcnab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    205
    Situational awareness is the number one defense of a CCW individual. The gun is only as good as the person carrying it, and it won't do you much good if the bad guys already have the drop on you. If you are prepared because you are maintaining 360 degree awareness, chances are good you will come out ok. When I am out in public, I try to be very aware of anyone nearby. If I am standing in line at the store, I always stand at an angle or sideways so I can keep an eye on the guy behind me as well as what is going on in front. I get very antsy when I have someone directly behind me and I can't see what they are doing. I know my gun is completely out of sight, but it still feels like fingers are reaching for my gun anytime someone is behind me.

    Great topic, Limatunes.

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array fludy12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    SW
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by 0.02 View Post
    I have a clip on my P32, but i prefer to stick it in a pocket holster as it's not any slower to draw and stays in place better.
    The downside on the pocket holster is lots of moisture, the gun sweats... but it's a KT, I can deal with a gnarly KT.
    Gnarly KT's are cool... Your gun sweats? I find myself doing most of that in this gnarly KT rig...


  6. #21
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,570
    Mine is in one of those cheap Uncle Mike's pocket holsters with the strips of sticky stuff to help it stay in place.
    I sometimes carried it without a holster, not so often these days though.

  7. #22
    Member Array sportkcjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Philly, PA
    Posts
    188
    excellent thread that gives us allot to think about. A couple of thoughts I have on gun retention have been already mentioned. Garment and body angles when bending, sitting, standing in line should always be a concern. As for the what if someone got their hands on your gun, I may have missed someone else's response so if this has been said once already sorry..OWB holsters can be grabbed on the muzzle end and pulled outward away from your body, which would pull the grip into your waist possibly securing it as a defensive move. If the weapon is removed from your holster my LEO training has always been to attempt to disable the weapon. revolvers have the space behind the trigger where a finger can be inserted and gripped around the shroud. A semi automatic can have the slide moved keeping it from being fired. Dropping the magazine may make certain weapons safe. Knowing your carry pieces are critical to your success in surviving this type of situation. Lets face it these are dire actions that may save your life they should be practiced (with an unloaded weapon) and a capable partner. Unfortunately allot of us could probably be reminded to conduct these drills when we would rather draw and shoot, Threads like these are excellent reminders of our responsibilities when we carry.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    south Florida
    Posts
    3,168
    Limatunes,
    I asked only because there seem to be two sides (staff v. "customer") in this scenario from whom to take lessons of experience. Yes, we can learn how easy it was to be disarmed, via the guy carrying without a holster; but we can also ask questions about what the store personnel did. That's all I was pointing out -- because I myself want to squeeze out all the learning from this situation that I can, too.

    I am thinking that if Dave was legally justified in putting his hands on this guy and physically taking his gun from him -- when Dave could not have known whether the guy had a license to carry it (even inadvisably holsterless) -- then he could have been legally justified in holding the guy at gunpoint because his actions indicated a large potential that he was about to commit a robbery.

    I don't think it's any more likely that the store personnel would have stood exposed to charges for drawing on and ordering to the floor the same people/person they disarmed. Each of those courses of action could be considered criminal assault if there weren't circumstances that justified doing them; there were four people who could bear witness to the idea that it was.

    We recognize that we are not required to wait until bullets are flying our way before we employ deadly force, or at least begin the continuum of force in an encounter even if we don't fire. That's why I suggest that if they were so worried that this was turning into a robbery (all four of them seemed to have had that belief) they were fully justified in stopping it by whatever means they had at hand.

    I think, in fact, that four guys drawing and aiming while at least one of them shouts orders would have put the staff less at risk than one guy with no training just walking up to guy A and reaching for and grabbing his gun! What if guy B then drew a gun at that moment, and caught everyone still holstered? What if a serious brawl between guy A and Dave ensued, with the two of them rolling around on the floor for guy A's gun? Then the other guys draw, and have to struggle to get a shot at guy A while he tussles around on the floor with Dave?

    So you see, I had reasons for suggesting that alternate ideas be considered. I hope you don't take umbrage at it. Your people are unharmed, and that's important; but it does not mean that everything they did was ideal, nor am I certain in my belief that everything I think they should/could have done is perfect. I am just working the example, trying for a better look at it.

  9. #24
    VIP Member
    Array Echo_Four's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Land of the mostly free
    Posts
    2,846
    1. I am careful about my concealment, as we all should be when we carry concealed. However, we are fooling ourselves if we think that someone would never know we are carrying. The way we dress, the way we carry ourselves, and the unusual lumps are all a sign that we have a firearm. If someone knows what to look for and watches you long enough, they'll know you're carrying.

    Second, I have quality holsters. That means leather (IWB or OWB) or Kydex IWB only. No matter how great your OWB holster is, it is a liability in retention issues. Some of them have great retention devices that keep the gun in the holster- but I've never seen a kydex holster that wouldn't come off the belt if treated roughly enough. Retention techniques can't work when the holster leaves the belt.

    Third, I train in weapons retention and H2H techniques. If you get my gun I'm impressed. I'll go H2H with you, but if you were good enough to get my gun then it isn't looking good for the home team.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
    - Lt. Col. Oliver North

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Over here now!
    Posts
    3,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    I have just a couple thoughts regarding one portion of this article... gun retention.

    1:) I think gun retention is something that should be practiced. Nothing replaces experience!

    2:) If your gun hand is securing your weapon in a struggle with someone trying to take it, where is your BUG? Is it accessible to your non-dominant gun hand and have you practiced drawing and shooting with your non-dominant gun hand?
    Great post.

    Thumper has great points.

    I really try to stress to people that carry the need for supplemental hand to hand skills and to not rely on the gun as a crutch. You don't have to be a black belt but you should learn to disable an attacker. If your gun is being grabbed and you don't have a BUG then it's your hands that will save you. It is possible to bring a person into compliance and diffuse his motor mechanics without using anything more than your fingertip.

    In regards to a BUG, situations dictate of course, but it may not be a great idea to introduce a firearm in close quarters. In force on force, I feel it is usually better (in tight quarters) to apply a last resort technique to gain compliance and then, if needed,gain distance to draw down and/or shoot. Remember OODA, it's your friend.

    We train in CDT-Compliance, Direction, Takedown and is worth looking into. It is extremely effective in dominating an attacker and reducing liability.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  11. #26
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    16,219
    Exactly why I either carry IWB(better concealment) or carry in a Serpa holster (still concealed). If they don't see the gun, they can't grab it. This is why alot of LE dept's have gone to level II or III retention holsters for duty. A gun grab is not a good scenario.
    I also practice retention and grappling techniques to fend off unarmed assaults.
    P.J. , if the gun store workers were to wait till the BG moved in, a gun fight could well have resulted. Better to overwhelm and catch them off guard before they get to their intended target. I believe this gave them the advantage by throwing off their plans. (OODA loop).
    finally , I agree with semperfi.45, a quick strike to the throat or other exposed area will be quicker to respond to a attack close up.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  12. #27
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    Great subject.

    I will just mention one thing in particular which is geared around space - how much space you have around you and so - the vulnerability factor regarding anyone disarming you as well as attacking.

    Within the scans of SA - comes too IMO the assessment related to just this - as soon as someone unknown is within a few feet even with no weapon presented ...... the need for preparedness increases tenfold.

    The element of surprise has always been effective but - only well so on the unsuspecting, therefore we need to keep focussed on possibilities even if sometimes that might seem paranoid (well to others!).

    Mention was made again today in another thread of ''task fixation'' ---- something I have really latched onto of late - because if fixated we are way more prone to surprise - whether direct attack or an attempt at disarming. Awareness must be total - but still managed for most part with fairly minimal effort. Practice makes that possible.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  13. #28
    Member Array Alien Nation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    283
    For the Serpa owners here. I have a good friend that carries a Glock 22 in a Serpa. He had his 6'4" 350 lb nephew try to yank the gun out simulating a gun grab. Now my friend weighs around 180 lb. His nephew was able to yank him off the ground a half dozen or more times but never got the gun out of the holster. By the way my friend was wearing a good quality gun belt.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Over here now!
    Posts
    3,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Alien Nation View Post
    He had his 6'4" 350 lb nephew try to yank the gun out simulating a gun grab.
    Now seriously...

    what would you do if he tried to grab your gun?

    Answer honestly, cause you won't have a lot of fight in you with someone that big.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  15. #30
    Member Array Alien Nation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    283
    First off I would get manhandled!! I would try very hard to hit him in the crotch and stick my thumbs as deep as possible in his eye sockets. I'm not a little guy. I do however have Fibromialja now so I'd have to do it quickly or I would be in trouble. If I could get to it I would grab my S&W knife(it has a razor sharp 3.25" blade) and I would cut him to pieces! Of course this is all possible only if the big bastige didn't knock me out first.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. This death might have easily been prevented (Merged)
    By Sunday in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: October 30th, 2009, 01:55 PM
  2. Grabbed the AR-15 tonight. Could very easily be dead or in jail.
    By dsee11789 in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: March 4th, 2009, 01:40 AM
  3. AR bolt not locking easily
    By Barrett4x4 in forum Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: November 30th, 2008, 09:56 AM
  4. Disarmed in my backyard.....
    By ENSANE1970 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: November 21st, 2007, 11:32 AM
  5. To save most vids more easily - Just FYI
    By P95Carry in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: October 10th, 2005, 10:03 PM

Search tags for this page

.45 holster for police/security duty belt in prescott az area
,
clipdraw review
,
how often can a gunman be disarmed
,
how to lindell method handgun retention
,

jim lindell disarming method

,
lindell disarm
,

lindell disarm video

,

lindell method

,

lindell method of handgun retention

,

lindell method retention

,
lindell system of weapon disarming
,

people in ohio searching for self defense lessons

Click on a term to search for related topics.