This is a discussion on How Easily One Can Be Disarmed within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by semperfi.45 Now seriously... what would you do if he tried to grab your gun? Answer honestly, cause you won't have a lot ...
i have a question relating to this.
If you were there when those two bad guys came in and you were carrying, would you be legally allowed to draw your gun at this point, or do they have to take theirs out first (what if it were actually a nice fellow ccw holder?) and whether or not it was legal, would you have?
A good number of the time the presence of a gun ends threats REAL fast. They quickly figure out you aren't as easy as a mark as they thought you were and they high-tail it out of there. You can find scores of stories where people drew their guns and just the presence of that gun ended a threat. You can also find stories were drawing the gun DID NOT end the threat and something else (lethal force or other wise) was needed to end it.
If someone approaches you and threatens you or you feel is going to threaten you (such as the three questionable individuals who started to charge my husband in a parking lot while he was putting equipment in is vehicle), you may feel threatened enough to draw your gun.
If the guy is a good guy he'll probably say, "Hey, woah, sorry. Let me explain."
If he's a normal cowardly bad guy he'll turn and run and decide you're not worth his time.
If he's a desperate bad guy (or on thirty types of drugs) and just keeps coming anyway, then use your best judgment.
However, if you draw your gun, even if nothing comes of it, CALL THE POLICE!
When a weapon is present whoever talks to the police first, wins. If the bad guy you just drew your gun on calls the police and says there's a maniac with a gun threatening people, and they find you, you are going to have a heck of a time explaining that he (the bad guy) started it and you may get pressed for brandishing.
However, if you call the police at the first moment you feel it is safe to do so (i.e. the threat has run away and you feel comfortable enough to holster, or even to reach for your cell phone). Report to them that a suspicious looking character made threatening gestures towards you, give a description of what the individual looked like, what he was wearing, tell them that you are a ccw holder and that you drew your gun, but that you DID NOT fire it. Tell them exactly what happened and get your butt covered as soon as possible so it can't come back to bite you.
IANAL and neither is Lima, brandishing laws vary across the country. Some people can unholster a weapon to 'make a point', others will 'go to jail - no $200'...
Also worth adding, brandishing (legal or not) is no magic cure, even for the casual criminal, he might be on three kinds of drugs or off his meds or just plain dumber than a box of dirt - whatever his problem the sight of your gun can make him madder than you ever imagined and he ends up wrestling you for it.
Judicious and informed is the way forward regarding using a gun as a visual deterrent. It can work, it can go terribly wrong.
Rule number one, if it leaves the holster be absolutely prepared to use it. If circumstances don't require use of a gun, leave it hidden.
This is exactly why I said, "MY UNDERSTANDING" meaning what I know of the laws of my state.
Also, why I said, "Use your best judgment."
When to draw is probably one of the most touchy subjects one can delve into. The variables are too flexible and unknown as well as the laws and everything else.
Some states require that you attempt to flee before you go for your gun. Others have other requirements and even if you do everything by the letter of the law, there's no promising that you aren't going to see the inside of a cell because of your actions.
Even with "stand your ground" laws, you can still find yourself in a world of trouble, or at least arrested and possibly in court, and even if all charges are dropped (assuming you are charged to begin with) then you still have legal fees and what not.
It is a very delicate topic.
And 0.02 is right.. I am NOT a lawyer!
And now I have that in writing, I'm going to show my wife that later...
Seriously though, the longer we are here the less we feel the need to add the 'IANAL' disclaimer sometimes, we likely assume it is a given, that anyone reading our posts know that we are giving opinion not legal advice.
It is always worth adding 'IANAL', if for no other reason than a new member could read a post here and decide that when 0.02 said it was ok to run down Main St naked shooting the moon he was a lawyer and somehow knew what he was talking about.
YMMV, the other great disclaimer...
This is an interesting thread, I can't believe I've missed this one 'til now.
A few observations. As to whether the employees handled the situation well or not, well that depends on the full story because Lima's telling us this 2nd hand.
The danger of trying to confront knowingly armed BGs is that even though you may have them covered by several people, that doesn't mean they're not stupid. What if the other was armed or the 1st one's VERY quick or carried it differently & managed to fire off a shot or more. It might not have been perfect, but anytime no one's hurt, it's a good ending.
As to when you can draw, yes, states differ. However, generally, it's when you feel threatened of great bodily harm &/or death. If an armed bystander drew, it should be because he/she felt endangered, not just to get in on it.
As to gun takeaways, if you're surprised or surprise someone else, it can be easy. I said CAN, not is. The element of surprise can go a long way, but that includes knowing exactly where one's gun is. Seeing where the guy put it, helps.
Many LE agencies spend (or should) a good amount of quarterly training for disarms & protecting against it. I've taken & instructed on disarming another when pointed at me (Thankfully, I haven't had to use it), among other classes.
Having a plan to retain you gun if someone attempts to grab/take it is important. It can be practicing with a dummy gun & others, if you want. An easily accessable & opening knife is important, I think. Even if you carry a BUG, it may or may not be quickly accessable especially if you're fighting to keep the 1st one (That, I can personally attest to). A knife, quickly brought into action, along with a BUG if you need it, can go a long way in you telling us about it tomorrow.
I understand some people carry their BUG strongside or maybe weakside, but having a knife weakside might be just as important. I typically have 3 knives on me. A strongside folder, a weakside folder (Not clipped to pocket, though), & a HAK on my keychain, which is usually dangling from a pocket (It's para-cord wrapped & no one's IDed it as a knife).
Very good thread, & I don't think the shop did bad at all.
"Use human means as though divine ones didn't exist, and divine means as though there were no human ones." Baltasar Gracian
Integrated Close Combat
Glock 19 & 26, Kahr CM9 & P45, Para P12, Kel-Tec P-32, S&W 442, & Dan Wesson 14-2.