How Easily One Can Be Disarmed

How Easily One Can Be Disarmed

This is a discussion on How Easily One Can Be Disarmed within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I debated whether to put this in Tactical Scenarios but decided it would be better fit here. While I would still like to hear some ...

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Thread: How Easily One Can Be Disarmed

  1. #1
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    How Easily One Can Be Disarmed

    I debated whether to put this in Tactical Scenarios but decided it would be better fit here. While I would still like to hear some scenario "what would you do" type answers, I would like to also discuss how this could happen, what you could do to prevent it and the likelihood that it could happen to you (even though you are a good guy).

    A week ago or so I posted a short story about our store manager who blew up after she got a glimpse of my carry gun while I was vacuuming the store. You can read that account here.

    While at work on Friday, my manager encouraged me to share that story with some of my other coworkers and so I did.

    To my enticed curiosity, one of my coworkers said, "Well, where was she the day you guys had those two idiots in your sights and Dave took that guy's gun?"

    (names have been changed to protect the innocent)

    I couldn't stand the suspense. I begged them to tell the story. Bob, Tom and Dave were all there when they incident took place and they were all present to tell the story so I got the whole story, in its entirety from the people who were actually there.

    It was early on a Friday morning and business was very slow when two young men came into the store looking extremely suspicious.

    Tom, a former police officer and SWAT trainer picked them out first, alerting both Bob and Dave to keep a special eye on them.

    While Bob has no military or police training, he has taken extensive civilian training and Dave is merely a former Math teacher with a love for firearms.

    The two individuals in question looked like nothing but trouble, on a comfortable spring day they were sweating profusely and wearing odd clothing.

    They would come to the gun counter, ask to see something, leave the counter, talk amongst themselves in the aisles surrounding the counter, return to the counter and leave again, all while acting fidgety, their eyes darting from side to side and even shaking.

    Tom decided to take some proactive action and circled around behind them out of their site, drawing his gun and keeping it trained on them while Bob casually did the same from the opposite direction. They left a fourth unidentified employee to "interact" with the two while Dave went to the front to watch over the rest of the store.

    The two individuals approached the counter one last time and one of them said that he needed to go out to the car and get his wallet.

    When he left the store, Dave kept his eye on him and saw that instead of a wallet the boy was getting, it was a gun. The boy put the gun in his pants, pulled his shirt over top of it and began to approach the store once more. When he entered the store, Dave grabbed his shirt pulling it up while also taking possession of the firearm with his other hand and saying, "I'll hold that for you."

    At that moment both questionable individuals ran, ne'er to be seen again.

    Of course the police were called and the weapon was turned over to them and a statement was given as to why they felt it was necessary to disarm the individual. Nothing further was made of the event.


    While this is a success story of disarming a potential attacker or robber, the thoughts that began to swirl in my head were of how easy it is to disarm someone.

    In less than a second, Dave had complete possession of a gun that could have been used against him. If a former math teacher can disarm someone, you can bet your life that a BG can also disarm you.

    This story has several lessons in it.

    1. It teaches about the element of surprise.
    Had Dave never seen the gun being put in the young man's pants, he would have never disarmed him because he never would have known that the young man was carrying. The situation could have escalated and the later presentation of that weapon could have ended in deadly force by strategically placed Tom and Bob.

    The less the perp (or anyone else for that matter) sees and knows the better. If you reach for something at Wal-Mart and your shirt rides up and you "get made" you may very well attract the attention of someone who can walk up behind you, lift your shirt and take your gun before you even know how to react (like the kid in our store).

    (Open carry is another thing all together that will be addressed in point number 2)

    2. It teaches the benefit of having a quality carry rig.
    If the young man had been carrying in a decent holster instead of just sticking the gun in the front of his pants, would Dave have been able to disarm him as easily as he did? Perhaps, no.

    I have often complained about my old carry holster and how it was a small step up from simply sticking my gun in my pants.

    That should not be. Your holsters, and carry rigs should be well built and well made that make taking possession of your gun difficult for anyone but yourself, especially if open carry is in the picture.

    I am not against open carry, however, were I to do so I would ONLY do it if my holster has some sort of retention device that made taking possession of my weapon near impossible by anyone but myself. The risk of having my gun out in the open is a risk of enticing someone to try to take it. It's not as hard as one may think, and who's to say what that individual will do with your gun once he has it.

    And God knows we do not want the golden rule to be broken which states, "Never get shot with your own gun."

    3. It teaches us to have a plan should someone, somehow, managed to get a hold of your weapon.

    In the scenario listed above, the individual ran once possession was taken of his weapon. I doubt any of us would so readily give up a gun to a bad guy if they managed to get it from us.

    I asked my husband what he would do if someone managed to take possession of his carry gun.
    "That's why I carry a backup gun or a knife. I'm getting VERY close and personal so hopefully they can't shoot me first and I'm either beating him, stabbing him or shooting him with my backup gun, because if someone has taken my gun they have just become a threat to me and to everyone around me and I won't let that happen."

    So, how about it?

    1. Are you as careful with your concealment as you should be?
    2. Does your holster provide enough retention or enough stability to ensure someone can't just come up and take it?
    3. Do you have a plan for if you are disarmed?


  2. #2
    JD
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    Thumbs up

    This is where your "radar" and skills of observation and awareness come into play.

    If someone is taking more interest in your than they should, they may have seen something that they shouldn't have, and it's up to you to make sure that:

    A: They don't see it.

    B: If they do start eyeballing you funny, keep your eyes on them and keep distance between you and them, distance is your friend, bullets reach out a heck of a lot further than hands.

    A good holster should only let the gun out buy being pulled straight up and out.

    If someone gets that close to my personal safety zone and makes a grab, he's going into an arm bar/wrist lock and getting his teeth knocked out.

    Ladies and gentlemen, if you "feel" someone making a grab for your gun, grab their hand, clutch it to your side with your arm, stomp their toes and then shove backwards, dart forwards turn and draw.

    My cover garments work very well.

    My holster and belt are pretty secure, retention device holsters and civilian carry don't go too well together very well, but they should still be strong enough to prevent being pulled out from the rear or front, yet another reason I like longer barreled pistols, more slide that forward or reward leverage will cause to hang the gun up in the holster.

    Situational awareness is huge, you know where your gun is, don't expose it, bend at the knees to avoid the butt of the gun from showing, reach for things above your head with your hand.


    Good post Lima.

  3. #3
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    I was laying brick today, yes I know it was a Sunday, laying brick involves lots of bending, stretching etc... there was a distinct possibility that a determined BG could've rushed me.
    I was just outside of downtown, not the best place in Nashville. The office I was working on has a problem with homeless people breaking into the crawlspace, I was bricking up some entry points.
    A few times I thought about how fast i could get to my BUG if my holstered gun was taken off my belt.
    I was carrying a Kel-Tec P32 in my strongside pocket and a revolver OWB strongside too, it was as good as I could manage with the clothes I had on, it was hot today.

    I really got thinking about how a BUG that is slow to draw is worse than useless, if my primary carry is taken from me I need to get the BUG out faster than anything I ever did before.

  4. #4
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    Another good post, just a few thoughts.

    A good holster is a must. A nylon Uncle Mike's (or similar brand) designed for several models will not have any retention to it, and is pretty much sticking the pistol down your pants. It' might keep it from falling out, but not being grabbed.

    Surprise can do wonderful things. I learned one of the quickest ways to stop a bar fight is come up behind a guy, completely pick him up and start carrying him to the door. The shock of being picked up off the ground and carried usually takes the fight out of that one, and the other one just stares at you kinda funny. (choke holds and armbars are also useful though). Which brings us to the next topic of people should be prepared to go H2H, or use melee weapons (knives, kubotans, pens, whatever), in order to keep yourself from being shot if someone goes for your gun.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  5. #5
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0.02 View Post

    I really got thinking about how a BUG that is slow to draw is worse than useless, if my primary carry is taken from me I need to get the BUG out faster than anything I ever did before.
    That's why I really like the Barami High Grips on my 642, you may want to check out the "clip draw" for your Keltec.

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    That's why I really like the Barami High Grips on my 642, you may want to check out the "clip draw" for your Keltec.
    I have a clip on my P32, but i prefer to stick it in a pocket holster as it's not any slower to draw and stays in place better.
    The downside on the pocket holster is lots of moisture, the gun sweats... but it's a KT, I can deal with a gnarly KT.

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    I have just a couple thoughts regarding one portion of this article... gun retention.

    1:) I think gun retention is something that should be practiced. Nothing replaces experience!

    2:) If your gun hand is securing your weapon in a struggle with someone trying to take it, where is your BUG? Is it accessible to your non-dominant gun hand and have you practiced drawing and shooting with your non-dominant gun hand?
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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    I try to be very careful with my concealment. I heard someone recently say they get out of their car and then put their gun into their concealment holster. That didn't make much sense to me. I always holster discretely while I'm still sitting in my car.

    My holster doesn't have a retention strap. I guess someone could grab it if they knew about it but they'd need to get pretty close to me.

    As for a plan if I am disarmed, hopefully I would have my backup gun on me that day. I'm also looking into taking some self defense classes regularly, still narrowing it down to where I want to join.
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    I have an old Safariland holster that was my duty holster for a model 19 .357 mag. My son who is a big strapping boy tried, as I asked him to, to pull the gun out. He lifted me off the ground but never removed the gun. It has to be drawn straight out and someone drawing it at an angle causes the sight guide to bind it. These are great for escorting prisoners. You must practice to draw it correctly but then nothing is perfect.
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  10. #10
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    Thumbs up

    Great Posts for both Lima and JD.

    I can not state this more emphatically! "You get out of it what you put into it!"

    Situational awareness is critical at all times. Part of what allowed the thug to be disarmed so easily was his lack of situational awareness. Part of what allowed them to avert a possible shooting incident in the gun store was because of good situational awareness on the GG's part.

    I have been very lucky in such as that while I am not a LEO, I have very close contacts with law enforcement and one of my very close friends is a LEO trainer who got me involved in myself becoming a certified law enforcement trainer in many disciplines including the "Lindell Method of Handgun and Long gun Weapon Retention and Disarming Techniques." (I spent my own hard earned money getting that training and those credentials and it wasn't cheap!) Jim Lindell is internationally recognized in the law enforcement community as the "Father of Handgun Retention."

    While these methods are generally NOT taught to the general public, many of the recognized shooting schools do teach the Lindell Method or other proven methods of weapon retention. Massad Ayoob is one of Jim's National Trainers with the National Law Enforcement Training Center and does teach aspects of the Lindell Method in his LFI courses.

    Anyone who takes any type of weapon retention course would be well served by the knowledge they learn in such training.

    3 videos/DVD's available to the general public specifically on handgun retention techniques are available through Lenny Magill's website, Gun Video's at the below link.

    While I have not viewed these particular video's personally, I do have approximately 20-25 DVD's I have purchased from this website alone and all of the ones I have are Top Quality!

    http://gunvideo.com/index.php?tpl=se...dgun+retention

    Most "concealment" type holsters do not have a thumb break safety strap but a good quality holster should at least hold the weapon securely enough not to just fall out during fairly strenuous activity.

    Most of my holsters are at least a Level II rating although I do have a few without any retaining straps or devices, they are of good quality.

    It all comes down to the price or value you put on your life and how much you are willing to learn in order to be the best you can be.

    I have said in prior posts, I pretty much treat lethal force and defense issues as a kind of religon and have been a student of lethal force and defense for over 25 years now.

    As Clint Smith says, My way may not be right, but I have "Time & Grade" in on the methods I use and they work for me.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    ... when two young men came into the store looking extremely suspicious. The boy put the gun in his pants, pulled his shirt over top of it and began to approach the store once more. When he entered the store, Dave grabbed his shirt pulling it up while also taking possession of the firearm with his other hand and saying, "I'll hold that for you."
    I hope that puts to rest any misconceptions folks might hold about gun shops not being targeted by criminals.

    Kudos to your colleagues for keeping their heads above the sand, keeping the heads on swivels, and for acting to decisively to protect their lives. That's not very easy to do, with the scat's hitting the fan.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Seems like this thread has turned definitively toward lessons to be learned from the fact that a thug employing Mexican carry was easily disarmed by someone forewarned that he had the gun in that location.

    What about the actions of the store personnel?

    What can we learn from what they did right, or wrong?

    - If they were that suspicious, should they have called the police, or triggered a silent alarm (if available)?

    - Since the bad guys ended up running and getting away, leaving only a (probably stolen) gun behind, is society really that well served by what happened? If the store personnel had done things just a bit differently, they might be in police custody right now, charged with attempted armed robbery.

    What about waiting until they are both well within the store, blocking the exit (an armed employee, with cover, near the exit door), with three or four people drawing on them and yelling for them to, "Drop it!! Down on the floor, NOW!!"? Heck, wouldn't even have to wait for the shirt to be lifted and the gun drawn -- a witness saw the guy arm himself and come inside, and had a "reasonable fear" of the imminent commission of a violent crime. Four guys draw, aim guns at the thugs, they piss their pants and hit the floor face down, cops arrive and arrest them, probably felons in possession for one thing and conspiracy to commit armed robbery / attempted armed robbery for another.

    If I'm wrong, please let me read alternative thoughts about this. While I'm pleased that the store protected itself, I'm rather displeased with the fact that these guys are still out there.

  13. #13
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    I'm not going to repeat so many good responses, however I will say this:

    When I first joined this forum a year ago, I recall reading a post that stressed the importance of a good holster - over and over. Since then, I've learned that using a crappy holster can be equated to using $20 tires on your sports car in the snow.

    BTW, out of curiosity, does any use retention straps? I've got one I use on a theigh rig for backpacking... anyone use 'em day to day?
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  14. #14
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    Most of my holsters are Level II rating and wear them frequently however a few of my "concealment" holsters ie, IWB are only Level I.

    My duty holster for swat call-outs is a Level III designed for tac light mounted to pistol as well.

    See info below for holster ratings

    http://www.nonlethal.com/faq.php

    What do the levels on a Safariland holster mean?

    Safariland's Holster Rating System is intended for holsters in new condition and can be used to evaluate any holster permitting the holster is properly adjusted for the weapon. The holster should be mounted on an appropriate duty belt and secured as it would normally be worn. The wearer is not permitted to hold the holster or belt during the test. The attacker has five seconds and can use both hands to apply force to the stock of the handgun. No intentional force may be applied to the release strap mechanism in the direction that is normally used to open the strap.

    Level 1 (a) Pull as hard as possible in all directions on the handle while violently twisting the weapon in all directions. If the weapon remains in the holster and the holster remains on the belt, make a normal draw to ensure the securing mechanism is not jammed. (b) Remove the holster from wearer, release external straps and invert with a light shake. The weapon should not fall out of the holster. If both tests are successful, the holster is rated at Level 1. If a holster fails, it cannot be tested for any other levels.

    Level 2 Unlock the primary security device and apply force pulling forward, straight up, towards the side, and from the back. If the holster has an additional device which offers measurable security in any of the directions, it meets Level 2.

    Level 3 The holster must have two independent securing devices during the Level 1 tests. If the holster offers retention with both devices open, it is rated at Level 3.

    Level 4 The holster must have three independent securing devices during the Level 1 tests. If the holster offers retention with the three devices open, it is rated at Level 4.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #15
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    1. Are you as careful with your concealment as you should be?
    When I conceal, YES. But, I open carry most of the time so I may not be the best person to answer this question.

    2. Does your holster provide enough retention or enough stability to ensure someone can't just come up and take it?
    YES. I use the Blackhawk SERPA holster for this very reason. It isn't fool proof by any means, as no holster is honestly, but it does a very good job of securing the weapon and resisting any disarm attempt. I also stay very aware of the people in the area. Situational awareness is key.

    3. Do you have a plan for if you are disarmed?
    Yes to that one too. I carry a good and very sharp folding knife mainly to help defend against a disarm attempt. I also have taken weapon retention training and I feel fairly confident in my abilities to fight off a disarming attempt.

    That being said, no one can be completely ready for this type of thing. There are always going to be complications to any plan. As I said, situational awareness is key.
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