Detained by Border Patrol in Maine (long)

This is a discussion on Detained by Border Patrol in Maine (long) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Rob72 OCing an unloaded weapon, without a permit is brandishing. Uh, it's transportation via holster. Brandishing would require overt handling or lifting ...

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Thread: Detained by Border Patrol in Maine (long)

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    OCing an unloaded weapon, without a permit is brandishing.
    Uh, it's transportation via holster. Brandishing would require overt handling or lifting the shirt to ensure someone looked directly and understood the warning (ie, in the film Boyz In The Hood, when Dough Boy brandishes by lifting his shirt and asking "do we have a problem?" That's brandishing.)

    What purpose could it serve, besides drawing attention?
    Protection. The thing with open carry is, it certainly indicates one is packing. To someone who sees a holster, that person would have to assume it's loaded. When one cannot go loaded, that's a good thing. In a place where unloading packing is not prohibited, one gets the benefit of an apparently stronger ability to defend one's self, while simultaneously not breaking the law.

    While I'm also not a fan of open carry, for other reasons, it's hard to see how this is a violation of the laws as reported in the discussion. (Note: I'm unfamiliar with Maine law.)
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    one gets the benefit of an apparently stronger ability to defend one's self, while simultaneously not breaking the law.
    I think we probably agree, vis-a-vis open carry, but the above is akin to running into a house of ill repute, with one's limp member in one's hand. The response is going to be, "Whatcha' think ya gonna do with that?!?!" Events progressing downhill from there. One would be presenting an item one is neither capable, nor intent, on using. If one insists on doing this in the presence of LE, one is inviting query. According to opencarry.org, a permit is required for OC in a vehicle in Maine. Poor judgement, gross immaturity, or both.

    I don't remember if this was posted here, but I forsee something akin to this in the young man's future: (Industrial rock and foul langauge, though you can't hear much)
    http://www.aussurvivalist.com/cgi-bi...?v=geOekVyooxI

    Kid takes brass knucks to a pit and gets faced down, and thumped a tad.

  4. #33
    Member Array Alien Nation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    I think we probably agree, vis-a-vis open carry, but the above is akin to running into a house of ill repute, with one's limp member in one's hand. The response is going to be, "Whatcha' think ya gonna do with that?!?!" Events progressing downhill from there. One would be presenting an item one is neither capable, nor intent, on using. If one insists on doing this in the presence of LE, one is inviting query. According to opencarry.org, a permit is required for OC in a vehicle in Maine. Poor judgement, gross immaturity, or both.

    I don't remember if this was posted here, but I forsee something akin to this in the young man's future: (Industrial rock and foul langauge, though you can't hear much)
    http://www.aussurvivalist.com/cgi-bi...?v=geOekVyooxI

    Kid takes brass knucks to a pit and gets faced down, and thumped a tad.
    I believe I understand where your coming from now.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  5. #34
    Member Array Murexway's Avatar
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    Lightbulb The Attitude test

    Hopefully, the young man in question has no prior convictions. But regardless, I would strongly advise him to go into court with a local attorney, known to the judge and respected/liked by him (the judge's former law partner, ideally) and to be as polite, meek, mild, and apologetic to the judge as possible.

    Tell the judge the facts. Tell him that you thought open carry in a vehicle was legal under Maine law; tell him that you realize that ignorance is no excuse; tell him that you're just a good 'ole boy trying to do what's right and legal; tell him that you appreciate the nice Border Patrol and Sheriff's Officers doing their difficult job and that you certainly didn't mean to cause them any aggravation or problem, and that you are sorry to take up the court's time with this.

    DON'T take an NRA or Gun Rights attorney into court as your counsel. DON'T try to quote the law to the judge. DON'T cop an attitude. DON'T dump on the LEO's no matter what they might have said or done to you. DON'T tell the judge your rights under the 2nd Amendment. DON'T suggest that the LEO's should have been spending their time catching the REAL bad guys.

    At this point, the objective is not to stick up for your rights or "beat" the charge. Your objective is to get out of court with some menial slap on the wrist (such as deferred adjudication) that won't cause you any further aggravation or expense, and no long-term consequences (such as being denied a CCW permit in the future).

    In the eyes of the judge, you're on the wrong side of the law and, hard as it may be to do, you need to bow and scrape and "Aw shucks" your way out of this one with the judge.

    Just my humble opinion (as a former LEO who's spent a bunch of time in court).

  6. #35
    Member Array Jonnyghost's Avatar
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    Open carry is perfectly legal in Maine. Can't have one loaded in your car without a permit but you can still carry it in the car as long as it's not loaded.

    "Possessing a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle. A person is guilty of having a loaded firearm in or on a motor vehicle if that person:
    While in or on a motor vehicle or in or on a trailer or other type of vehicle being hauled by a motor vehicle, has any firearm with a cartridge or shell in the chamber or in an attached magazine, clip or cylinder or a muzzle-loading firearm charged with powder, lead and a primed-ignition device or mechanism. (Title 12 Chapter 709 §7406)"



    My father was once talking to a warden, the warden asked him if his rife was loaded, he said that it was. I think the fine was $80 for transporting a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle. I also believe it was a civil violation.

    I'd like to know what it is they are charging him with.
    Being peaceful does not guarantee peace, strength and a willingness to commit violence when needed does.

  7. #36
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    I think peacefuljeffrey is on the right track here. Border Patrol operates on a different set of rules and reasons for a traffic stop. However, their scope of enforcing the law is very limited. A BP agent can correct me here, but I do believe that their scope of law enforcement only includes immigration, drugs and suspected terrorists. Indifferent of all of this, since when does a BP agent have state law enforcement authority?

    I may be a little rusty on my search and seizure laws, but I do believe that after they establish that you are a U.S. citizen that the traffic stop is pretty much over unless they have something else to latch onto. In this case I think the questions regarding where your friend was coming from, where they were going to, the purpose of the travel, etc. was kind of walking the line on the scope of the stop (e.g. confirm or dispel the original reason for the stop and let them go). Detaining him beyond the scope of the BP agent's authority for the stop for a state-level violation (which he shouldn't be certified to enforce) is kind of illegal. It's like a BP agent stopping you for a speeding violation, they can't write a ticket for it so they can't stop you unless you're endangering lives and weaving across multiple lanes or into oncoming traffic.

    On the other hand, this may be a case like we run into where I work many times. Many of the calls that we get regarding CCW violations come from BP agents that are transferred from a strict carry law state like California. In one instance, I told the agent that I wasn't even going to acknowledge the call with a unit. The call was about a guy coming into the U.S. and had a gun on the seat of his car. I asked him was it in a holster, he said yes. Then I said what was the problem then? He said that he shouldn't have a gun and that he shouldn't have it in his car because he came from Mexico where it isn't allowed at all. I asked him if he was a Federal agent of Mexico, he said no. I said, well, as far as we're concerned (as in U.S. and Arizona) he's free to go and did nothing wrong. Unless he plans to charge him with Mexican law (love to see the U.S. Attorney's reaction on that citation lol), then he needs to let him go.

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murexway View Post
    DON'T take an NRA or Gun Rights attorney into court as your counsel. DON'T try to quote the law to the judge. DON'T cop an attitude. DON'T dump on the LEO's no matter what they might have said or done to you. DON'T tell the judge your rights under the 2nd Amendment. DON'T suggest that the LEO's should have been spending their time catching the REAL bad guys.
    <snip>
    In the eyes of the judge, you're on the wrong side of the law and, hard as it may be to do, you need to bow and scrape and "Aw shucks" your way out of this one with the judge.
    I'm not going to challenge your advice or assertions here, but I have some things to comment on.

    It may well be that "don't-ing" the things you warn against here is the best way to skip on out of there relatively intact and un-incarcerated... but the fact that this is true underscores a SERIOUS SICKNESS in or "legal" system. (Some have pointed out the inappropriateness of calling it a "justice" system, because it's really not anymore.)

    How demented is it that you have to essentially kiss the xxx of a judge, prostrate yourself before the court, and beg for mercy in a case where YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, where you should NOT have been arrested/cited?!

    In my view, if the system were healthy, you could expect to be able to stand firmly, state your rights, condemn inappropriate behavior by the authorities, chastise them for trampling your rights, and walk out of there with charges dismissed with the court's apologies. The fact that doing what you should have every right to do will surely get you screwed is a sign of terminal illness in our system.

    As far as, "in the eyes of the judge, you're on the wrong side of the law":
    How in the hell can you be on the "wrong side of the law," in the view of what's supposed to be an IMPARTIAL JUDGE, before the case has even been presented?! Being brought into court on charges is now as good as being guilty? Why bother wasting everyone's time with a trial, then?!

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    I don't understand the justification for the BP agents to approach the trio in the first place.

    Did their vehicle cross the border into the U.S. while being observed by the agents? Or did the trip originate and terminate within the U.S.? If the latter, then what reason can the BP agents have to start questioning people? Was there ANY probable cause for them to believe that an immigration/border law was being broken? If not, they should not be harassing innocent American citizens, PERIOD.

    And if they were going to, the first thing they should ask for is something that proves American citizenship, like a driver's license. Of course, with no suspicion that the passengers are illegally in the country, if they had no I.D. on them, there shouldn't be anything the agents can do. (Assuming a passenger who is not CCWing.) "So sorry, I can't prove to you who I am, but then, I don't have to be able to prove to you who I am."

    The only reasonable cause for them to start the stop/questioning is if they have probable cause on a suspicion of breaking immigration laws. And once it's obvious that's not the case, they should be leaving people the hell alone. They crossed the line on this one. These are the same Border Patrol that desperately need the goodwill of the American people right now. Two guys were legally armed, obviously good guys, and these agents still busted on their friend. Nice. Guess which three people will think twice before saying anything positive about, or supporting, the Border Patrol again.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I'm not going to challenge your advice or assertions here, but I have some things to comment on.

    It may well be that "don't-ing" the things you warn against here is the best way to skip on out of there relatively intact and un-incarcerated... but the fact that this is true underscores a SERIOUS SICKNESS in or "legal" system. (Some have pointed out the inappropriateness of calling it a "justice" system, because it's really not anymore.)

    How demented is it that you have to essentially kiss the xxx of a judge, prostrate yourself before the court, and beg for mercy in a case where YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, where you should NOT have been arrested/cited?!

    In my view, if the system were healthy, you could expect to be able to stand firmly, state your rights, condemn inappropriate behavior by the authorities, chastise them for trampling your rights, and walk out of there with charges dismissed with the court's apologies. The fact that doing what you should have every right to do will surely get you screwed is a sign of terminal illness in our system.

    As far as, "in the eyes of the judge, you're on the wrong side of the law":
    How in the hell can you be on the "wrong side of the law," in the view of what's supposed to be an IMPARTIAL JUDGE, before the case has even been presented?! Being brought into court on charges is now as good as being guilty? Why bother wasting everyone's time with a trial, then?!
    Same page here! The way I see it, as soon as a judge has shown themselves severely impartial on the bench they should be IMMEDIATELY removed. Problem is that that won't happen due to politics.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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  11. #40
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    Update: The young man in question was charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. That's the official charge. Thanks for all of the advice. I think he will be able to contest the charge with no problem as he was breaking no laws in the state of Maine.
    In God we trust, everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.

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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array jarhead79's Avatar
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    Forgive me for not reading all 4 pages, but my opinion on the matter is this:

    Contest it. It goes to court. The Border Patrol guy won't show up. Case dismissed.
    www.ubgholsters.com short wait times. Use 'defensivecarry' as a coupon code for a discount to your order.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead79 View Post
    Forgive me for not reading all 4 pages, but my opinion on the matter is this:

    Contest it. It goes to court. The Border Patrol guy won't show up. Case dismissed.
    Only one problem with that, the BP guy doesn't have to show in court. They just have to submit a case report to their agency and give that to the officer that charged him. A BP agent can't enforce state law, so it was a state/county/local LEO that charged him with it. I would advise Bline's friend to get a copy of both the report from the agency that issued the citation and BP.

    If there is anything said in there that doesn't deal with it being loaded or doesn't mention the loaded status of the gun at all, that should be the loophole to get the case dismissed because they didn't show proof he violated the law. If I am correct with the law in MI, the gun has to be unloaded. If there was no proof or testimony to the fact that it was loaded at the time of the traffic stop then they didn't get any evidence that he violated the law (e.g. to violate the law it must be loaded, no proof on loaded status, no proof a law was broken).

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Challenge the nature of the stop itself. They had ZERO probable cause.

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Challenge the nature of the stop itself. They had ZERO probable cause.
    I believe that it is case law that probable cause is not needed to stop vehicles for spot checks if:
    a) you stop 100% of the vehicles
    OR
    b) you stop "random" vehicles like every 3rd car, every 5th car, etc. as long as you follow the algorithm.
    Same thing as a sobriety checkpoints from a legal standpoint.

    Can anyone confirm or deny this?

    At the checkpoint that the OP posted about they stop 100% of the cars going down the road. I was under the assumption that thish is perfectly legal if done this way but I could be wrong.

    Everytime I've been through one of these checkpoints it goes like this: "good morning...US citizens?" "yes" "thank you" [wave me along]
    sorry for the semi-hijack

  16. #45
    Member Array ttpete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundwave View Post
    Only one problem with that, the BP guy doesn't have to show in court. They just have to submit a case report to their agency and give that to the officer that charged him. A BP agent can't enforce state law, so it was a state/county/local LEO that charged him with it. I would advise Bline's friend to get a copy of both the report from the agency that issued the citation and BP.

    If there is anything said in there that doesn't deal with it being loaded or doesn't mention the loaded status of the gun at all, that should be the loophole to get the case dismissed because they didn't show proof he violated the law. If I am correct with the law in MI, the gun has to be unloaded. If there was no proof or testimony to the fact that it was loaded at the time of the traffic stop then they didn't get any evidence that he violated the law (e.g. to violate the law it must be loaded, no proof on loaded status, no proof a law was broken).

    Cheers.
    I would think that the defendant has the right to subpoena the BP agent. The agent DID effect the arrest by detaining the defendant, no matter who wrote up the report. The arrest happened the moment the handcuffs went on and the defendant was not able to leave of his own free will. Also, the DA charges the person, not the police. The police ARREST the individual for an alleged act.
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