CCW exposure/printing in Kansas

This is a discussion on CCW exposure/printing in Kansas within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I took 2 classes for my CCW permit, and I remember in both they discussed the dangers of allowing your concealed weapon to print, or ...

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Thread: CCW exposure/printing in Kansas

  1. #1
    Member Array stewartjwnls's Avatar
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    CCW exposure/printing in Kansas

    I took 2 classes for my CCW permit, and I remember in both they discussed the dangers of allowing your concealed weapon to print, or be exposed. I "remember" being told that you could be charged criminally if someone complained. (could this have been if reference to another state?)

    It was explained that this was to prevent someone who was displaying or brandishing a weapon for purposes of intimidation, from using "accidental exposure" as an excuse.

    Now, I can't find anything in the law that addresses this.

    I realize that if you do allow your weapon to be "seen" that you're just asking for someone to freak out, and you may end up having to explain to LE if they call it in.

    However, I'd really like to know if this is just common sense, or if there is a true legal liability.

    Anyone know for sure?
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    Member Array LMarshall73's Avatar
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    They mentioned the same during my class in Florida. My theory is this - do you really want to be the test case?

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    Senior Member Array mark555's Avatar
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    I took the Kansas CC class also, and I remember it as a total opposite of what you are saying. Kansas is an “open” carry state that is limited by the municipalities. You can not be charged with brandishing if you show as a result of an accident. My instructor even went so far as to say that if you were attempting to ward off a potential threat by displaying your CCW that you were in the clear (not something that I want to be a test case for). Try this form; Forum it is the Kansas CC form. They will be able to answer your questions there are a number of instructors involved in it.
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    I personally witnessed a poor guy in a Denny's restaraunt being hauled out due to the fact that a waitress saw a ( print) of his gun through his shirt and called the police. I live in Florida ,and a call to the police about a man with a gun seems to dictate 4 units. As far as I was concerned he had done no wrong, who knows maybe the waitress was anti gun. I was sitting 2 seats away from him at the counter with my Commander tucked away and no one knew. I ran into a shooting friend a while later who knew this gent personally, and he told me that the State of Florida pulled his CCW due to this incident. Years ago when I took my CCW course I remember the instructor who was a cop telling us students that exactly that would happen if and when we were ( made ). I am very aware at all times that I have a gun hidden and try to be " coy" about it if possible. I have ( made ) amny careless individuals over the years. It's not too hard if you know what to look for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slinger View Post
    I personally witnessed a poor guy in a Denny's restaraunt being hauled out due to the fact that a waitress saw a ( print) of his gun through his shirt and called the police. I live in Florida ,and a call to the police about a man with a gun seems to dictate 4 units. As far as I was concerned he had done no wrong, who knows maybe the waitress was anti gun. I was sitting 2 seats away from him at the counter with my Commander tucked away and no one knew. I ran into a shooting friend a while later who knew this gent personally, and he told me that the State of Florida pulled his CCW due to this incident. Years ago when I took my CCW course I remember the instructor who was a cop telling us students that exactly that would happen if and when we were ( made ). I am very aware at all times that I have a gun hidden and try to be " coy" about it if possible. I have ( made ) amny careless individuals over the years. It's not too hard if you know what to look for.
    What would keep someone ( that knew you carried )like an ex-girlfriend or someone that has a grudge against you from just calling in and saying they saw a gun on you even if they didn't at the time? Thats pretty scarey..

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    I would suggest reading up on what the law says as far a brandishing, accidental exposure and such. Some instructors are better than others , but few are lawyers.
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    Member Array stewartjwnls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    I would suggest reading up on what the law says as far a brandishing, accidental exposure and such. Some instructors are better than others , but few are lawyers.
    I've looked over the recent applicable law regarding concealed carry in Kansas. I didn't find anything.

    Obviously there must be laws on the books about this, not specifically related to CCW, but I would expect would apply.

    Anyone in KS know?
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    Senior Member Array mech1369dlw's Avatar
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    To carry concealed in Kansas, you must have a card in your pocket, or be on your own property/have permission from landowner that owns the land you are on, or actively hunting lawfully. If the wind blows and your gun shows, it is not a problem. If you are engaged in an argument with someone, and you pull your shirt to show it off, you are in trouble. For the most part, Kansas is also open carry, except for some of the big cities and those ruled by idiots. Open carry long enough here, and I will guarantee some soccer mom is gonna call the cops and if you get a "buckeroo", you will probably get hit with disturbing the peace charge. As for printing or accidentally flashing very fast, it won't get you in trouble unless you are talking to a knuckle head. Easiest thing to do, wear larger shirts, keep the gun securely hidden and you will not have any problems. Use common sense and you won't have to be the test case.
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    I was told the exact same thing & warning by the CHP/LTC instructors in both VA (NRA) and in MA (S&W), all of whom were seasoned LEOs or retirees.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    ... the dangers of allowing your concealed weapon to print, or be exposed.
    The simple reality is, accidental, temporary exposure or "printing" is not any more impactful to the world's outcome than your shoelace coming untied. Despite people's unreasonable fears to the contrary.

    The technical legality of a state's conception of the definition of the term "brandishing" varies from state to state, of course, despite the term having a simple, basic meaning. A reasonable person understands "brandishing" to mean the handling/display in such a manner as to intimidate ... not the mere indicental hint or visibility of a gun's outline or actual surface because of temporary display unknown to the carrier.

    Oxford English Dictionary definition: Brandish, verb: to wave or flourish (something) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
    Washington state has a fairly simple definition, and this sort of wording seems fairly typical across many states:
    RCW 9.41.270: Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    <snip>
    In point of fact, mere "printing" does not warrant alarm on the part of anyone, even of someone else exhibits exactly such alarm as the result of a fear regarding firearms. Someone else's fear, in the absence of intent or overt action on the part of the carrier, does not mean the carrier has committed any crime. However, does any of that disallow your state's law enforcement officers from coming after you in the belief someone's fear is sufficient cause? Nope. Aren't laws and unreasonable government intrusion fun?

    Oregon allows open carry. The state preemption clause (ORS 166.170) disallowing cities, municipalities or other state government agencies or departments (including college campuses) from enacting ordinances or laws in contravention of state laws covering firearms, at least insofar as legal concealed carry is concerned (ORS 166.173). Without CHL, though, cities and municipalities can limit discharge and carrying of loaded firearms. Oregon also doesn't have a formal brandishing law (given open carry); the laws covering intimidation and threats essentially cover this sort of behavior, but these require specific intent, not accidental exposure or someone's baseless fear.

    No matter how hard law enforcement departments attempt to be PC and pacify the fearful public, no amount of incidental "printing" is a crime. At worst, it could be called brandishing, but without intent it hardly holds water.

    That said ...

    "test" case? Without explicit legal clauses in the statutes for concealed carry that specifically disallow any such incidental "printing" or visibility to be considered brandishing, we are all at risk of exactly that. While knee-jerk insanity over firearms in this country prevails, it's hard to avoid being targeted by unrestrained government forces when the fearful scream "Gun!" Be prepared to be approached, controlled, even put in cuffs or arrested, in the pursuit of people's fragile sensibilities being coddled. Sad, but true.

    Cynical? Perhaps a bit. Realistic? Yup.

    Suggestion: As always, consult with a competent attorney, covering the questions of brandishing and related statutes and case law as they apply in your state.
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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    What would keep someone ( that knew you carried )like an ex-girlfriend or someone that has a grudge against you from just calling in and saying they saw a gun on you even if they didn't at the time? Thats pretty scarey..
    Nada. Which is why one should live by the Rule of Stupids:
    1) Don't hang around Stupid people
    2) Don't go to Stupid places (where Stupid people congregate)
    3) Don't do Stupid things (generally violating #s 1 or 2, but some folks are just real creative.)

    This sort of goes along with a theory of mine: it does not hurt to be different. If your Glock has a pink Duracoat slide, and you don't advertise the fact, a complaintant will look pretty foolish if they can't describe something that would make a significant impression on most folks.

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    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    You can read the entire text of the CCH law for Kansas at ksag.org. My class said open carry is legal, but why give up element of surprise.

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    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    i was told by our lawyer (in MI) that if you expose your gun (even by accident) it COULD be considered brandishing and you could get charged with that. Although most say you have to have some threatening jester or word or have your hand on the gun for brandishing. depends on who your asked. so just make sure your cover garment doesnt fly open.
    as far as printing goes- our lawyer said that u can have the tightest shirt on in the world and have a perfect outline of a gun and it cant be brandishing, but most likely someone will call the cops and panic and yada yada. you dont want to be looking down a cops barrel b/c he thinks you might be a bad guy. but at least here in MI you cant 'get in trouble' for it. so i suggest doing your best not to print.

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    Member Array OfClanMcnab's Avatar
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    I don't see why anyone with a decent lawyer shouldn't be able to have charges dropped and retain their CCW, if they were caught accidentally printing. Get a good lawyer, people, and be prepared to pay money. Unfortunately, freedom isn't free, and your rights aren't guaranteed, even in this country.

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    New Member Array mymonie's Avatar
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    Just to clarify

    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    i was told by our lawyer (in MI) that if you expose your gun (even by accident) it COULD be considered brandishing and you could get charged with that. Although most say you have to have some threatening jester or word or have your hand on the gun for brandishing. depends on who your asked. so just make sure your cover garment doesnt fly open.
    as far as printing goes- our lawyer said that u can have the tightest shirt on in the world and have a perfect outline of a gun and it cant be brandishing, but most likely someone will call the cops and panic and yada yada. you dont want to be looking down a cops barrel b/c he thinks you might be a bad guy. but at least here in MI you cant 'get in trouble' for it. so i suggest doing your best not to print.
    To clarify on this a bit. MI is open carry. Showing or printing your gun by accident is NOT brandishing and not against the law. Sure, you could be "harassed" by LEO. If i am at the supermarket and reach for my wallet and in turn the tip of my gun is exposed - some lady sees it, calls the cops - i may be questioned, detained but it is NOT brandishing.

    Now, let's assume i get in an arugement with some lady at the supermarket over a parking space or a can of beans, then she sees me print and calls the cops. Now, there is more of a case but it comes down to the specific cop's opinion. If the LEO thinks i was acting agressively and even showed my gun for a reaction from this lady, yes i could get in trouble.

    But in MI you can walk around fully open or partially open and not legally break any laws. Harassed? Sure. But printing is not illegal in MI.

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