When to pull and when not to pull - Page 2

When to pull and when not to pull

This is a discussion on When to pull and when not to pull within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Read lots of scenarios here. Go through lots of "mental training" (ie: fantasy scenarios). Take more classes if you can. Hopefully, anything your faced with ...

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Thread: When to pull and when not to pull

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Read lots of scenarios here. Go through lots of "mental training" (ie: fantasy scenarios). Take more classes if you can. Hopefully, anything your faced with will relate to something you've already thought of. It might help you make the decision faster. Gotta play it all as you see it.
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  2. #17
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    Welcome

  3. #18
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    I'm no lawyer but self defense is based on that you beleived at the time you defended yourself you were in fear for life or of great bodily harm. No weapon need be present and no real threat for that matter just the believe. Threats can be real or preceived both are valid threats.
    We all have preceived a threat without an actual threat appearing thats why we carry.
    That said lethal force should not be used to keep you from getting a black eye and bruises.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    This thread, once again, emphasizes the awesome responsibility we undertake when we elect to carry a gun. It is one thing to state the legal requirements in the comfort of our home as we sit at our computer, it is quite another when we are faced with having to make a split second decision whether we can legally use deadly force, ie, do we have a reasonable belief that our life is threatened or that we will sustain serious physical injury...

    ...I try real hard to leave my ego at home when I venture out. The consequences of not doing so, are just too onerous.

    Ron


    Ron, I agree whole heartedly with your post. When things happen in real life, they happen in the blink of an eye and then someone is dead or dying. The numbers say that most gunfights are over in less than 5 seconds. Not a whole lot of time to think and react.

    My opinion is the more time you spend learning the intricacies of deadly force situations and knowing the laws and requirements surrounding judicious use of lethal force and all it encompasses is what allows you to make those split second decisions that may save your life.

    Deadly force scenarios are fast and fluid by their very nature. Circumstances can and do change from the time you decide to go for your gun, clear leather and come up on target.

    Knowing the legal parameters of what is justified to the point of being subconscious and second nature is what may allow you to hold your shot once you decided to draw if the situation has changed since the time you decided to draw and come on target.

    Taking someones life is a serious thing regardless of the circumstances. Having to go to prison because of the decision you made is not a proposition I would want to face.

    That is why most, if not all "lethal force" trainers stress avoidance to be your best course of action. I agree!

    Having a high level of situational awareness, and following the "Rule of 3 Stupids" hopefully allows us to avoid being in a killing situation to begin with.

    (The Rule of 3 Stupids)
    1) Avoid Stupid People
    2) Do Not Perform Stupid Acts
    3) Stay Out of Places of Stupidity
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #20
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Ron, I agree whole heartedly with your post. When things happen in real life, they happen in the blink of an eye and then someone is dead or dying. The numbers say that most gunfights are over in less than 5 seconds. Not a whole lot of time to think and react.

    awareness, and following the "Rule of 3 Stupids" hopefully allows us to avoid being in a killing situation to begin with.

    (The Rule of 3 Stupids)
    1) Avoid Stupid People
    2) Do Not Perform Stupid Acts
    3) Stay Out of Places of Stupidity
    Bark'n, I was not aware of the "Rule of 3 Stupids" before I read your post, but it is great wisdom to help stay out of trouble. I think that it is going to be a refrigerator post in my house, as a constant reminder.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotammo View Post
    I'm no lawyer but self defense is based on that you beleived at the time you defended yourself you were in fear for life or of great bodily harm. No weapon need be present and no real threat for that matter just the believe. Threats can be real or preceived both are valid threats.
    We all have preceived a threat without an actual threat appearing thats why we carry.
    That said lethal force should not be used to keep you from getting a black eye and bruises.

    You are pretty much correct... Just remember that your fear of death or great bodily harm must be "Reasonable".

    Like I said in my earlier post... Facing a person 1/2 your size wielding a plastic wiffle ball bat probably won't pass the "reasonable" aspect of being in fear of your life.

    You may want to try that out... but I sure wouldn't want to be the test case on that defense.

    Mas Ayoob offers a good analogy... We don't just pull out our licensed CCW gun and shoot every police officer on sight.

    While he certainly has the ability to kill us (He has a loaded gun on his hip) and certainly the opportunity to kill us, (firearms can reach out and touch you from great distances) but the missing component there is the lack of being in jeopardy.

    All three components have to be present simultaneously in order for your fear to be considered reasonable and thus your use of lethal force justified.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #22
    Member Array Sam Douthit's Avatar
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    At my age, 74, I consider that. Even though at 16 I was a Golden Gloves contender I am very weak and slow and uncoordinated now when compared to that time. I still think I could throw a punch if the BG was a small person and wide open. But I would draw my gun on the BG and probabliy fire if he kept coming or attacking. Remember the 20 foot rule that they might in that short distance stab or hit you before you can draw and fire unless you are quick and determined. Toe to toe fighting depends on your ability and confidence. Don't bet on the weakness of your opponent you will usually lose.
    Sambo74
    SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

  8. #23
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    Now please don't think I am being arrogant when I say dying isn't an option...It just that I EXPECT to win in a life or death struggle. When the SHTF I don't want any doubt in my mind.

    It is the same way with a great athlete. They expect to win whenever they cross that white line onto the playing field. I do know in the real world the good guys don't always win but when the time comes I expect to win.[/QUOTE]

    As my H2H instructor told me in BUD/S, training, practice, and expectation of winning is important in H2H. But the most important ingredient is motivation. The most motivated to win, wins. There are willing to do what ever it takes to win. I have found that he is correct.
    Every H2H situation I have been in I've won, but have found myself having to step up my motivation in the midst of battle. I'll be damned if I was going to lose. The desire to stay alive and protect your family can be highly motivating.
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  9. #24
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    Stormtruck... You are absolutely correct.

    You can't display a violence of action and expect to win if your heart isn't into it!

    When I was a boot, there was a little scuffle in the squad bay. Two MP's responded with loaded .45's. After the scuffle and both participants were carted off in handcuffs never to be seen again (we were told they were fined, placed in CCP "corrective custody platoon" while they were processed for discharge), our Sr. Drill Instructor had a sit down heart to heart with the rest of us USMC recruits.

    He explained the MP's responded because when Marines fight, it's usually a fight to the death. He said, when Marines fight, we expect to see ears ripped off, eyes poked out and crushed trachea's!

    He explained, as Marines, you have to ask yourself before involving yourself in any fight. Is it worth killing the person over? If it's worth killing over, will I accept the consequences? If you can't answer yes to both those questions you better walk away and go about your business.

    I'm sure it was all part of the routine "indoctrination" but it's something I took to heart and it has stayed with me ever since.

    Now I have been in more than one fight over the years defending myself on the job since then, and while I never killed the person, I was fully prepared to take it that far if needed.
    Last edited by Bark'n; June 18th, 2007 at 03:20 PM.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    I usually agree with Doc Holliday, but he posted something I would have to disagree with, IMHO this would not be a place to use OC or pepper spray, as the other passengers on the bus suddenly become victims and many lawyers will make an easy pay check from your spray. That being said I am really enjoying this thread...


  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR D View Post
    I usually agree with Doc Holliday, but he posted something I would have to disagree with, IMHO this would not be a place to use OC or pepper spray, as the other passengers on the bus suddenly become victims and many lawyers will make an easy pay check from your spray. That being said I am really enjoying this thread...

    Hey no problem man. That is why we are on this discussion board. Throwing ideas and experiences off of each other to improve ourselves.
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  12. #27
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    The legal principle here is called Disparity of Force. If you are a senior citizen and your attacker is younger and stronger, then a disparity exists and you are justified in using more than bare hands. Two against one is always a deadly force situation, as far as I am concerned.
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    Opinions expressed here are based upon Michigan state law ONLY. Other state laws may differ. Know and observe your local laws.

  13. #28
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    Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, and Preclusion:

    Ability--attacker has to have the ability to kill you (or someone else) or do you grievous bodily harm. This means they can either be 300lbs and ur 100lbs, they can have a brick, umbrella, knife, pencil, ect. They just must have to have the ability to kill or maim you.

    Opportunity--the attacker must have the opportunity to harm you. If said attacker is behind a fence or 100 yards away yelling at you then he/she doesn't really have the opportunity to harm/kill you. That said...it only takes 1.5 seconds for an average human to cover 21 feet...add a baseball bat into the mix and now they are a threat at 25 feet. So, its acceptable to believe that a person ~21ft or less with a weapon now has ability and opportunity.

    Jeopardy-- basically you have to know at that time that the attacker is going to kill you. A reasonable person must know conclude that he/she is going to be killed by this person.

    Preclusion-- basically, only use force as a last resort. It's your responsibility as a gun owner to remove yourself from situations that would involve the use of your firearm. It's only when you can't do anything else to retreat/remove yourself from the situation that you can use your firearm.

    When you meet all of those criteria you are in a situation where the use of lethal force is acceptable. Shoot to eliminate the threat.




    *I'm not a lawyer*

  14. #29
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    Haven't seen it plainly yet so...

    Search your .gov for your state laws regarding use of force, retreat, etc.

    +1 for defense training and legal research
    Last edited by jmsstnr; June 19th, 2007 at 02:25 AM. Reason: remove link for false url

  15. #30
    JD
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    My theory on the matter is this:

    If your sitting there thinking about if you should draw, then it's all ready too late and you should've had your gun out a few seconds ago.

    I'd rather draw and have the bad guy flee, then debate weather it's right to draw or not. Time is a precious thing that you can never get back.

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