When to pull and when not to pull

When to pull and when not to pull

This is a discussion on When to pull and when not to pull within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I took my ccw class and the instructor said if you can't get away to pull to defend yourself, even if they do not have ...

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Thread: When to pull and when not to pull

  1. #1
    New Member Array rob69's Avatar
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    When to pull and when not to pull

    I took my ccw class and the instructor said if you can't get away to pull to defend yourself, even if they do not have a weapon because he has heard of people getting killed just from people using bare hands
    so just wondering if he was right or wrong.
    What is your opinion?


  2. #2
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    First - welcome!!

    The often quoted fair decision-making factor is - are you in fear of your life.

    This does not need a firearm to be present - it could be a knife, Louisville Slugger, even a bag of potatoes but - if the threat is perceived as serious (and you'd have to justify that in court) ........ then you could feasably draw your sidearm.

    But - note well - in most cases if you got that far - you'd also better be prepared to use it. It presupposes too in many states you had little remaining option for retreat.

    It is fortunate however that in many cases a presentation can defuze things enough to save the day but - if that occurs with no shots fired .... be sure also to call in the incident and explain ... you are the good guy - and want to make sure some scumbag doesn't try and make you out to be the aggressor.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Member Array Texas Yankee's Avatar
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    There was a case here in Texas recently where a CHL shot and killed another man on a bus. It started with the CHL bumping the guy as he was heading for his seat. The guy got upset following the CHL as he retreated toward the back of the bus. The guy did not have a weapon of any kind. The CHL pulled a knife but that didn't deter the guy. Then the CHL pulled his gun and shot him. The guy was much bigger than the CHL although about 10 years older, they were both under 35. The CHL go no billed by a grand jury with several witnesses saying that his life was in danger and he was defending himself. Also it turned out the guy had been convicted previously of several assaults including one on a LEO. So it was a good shooting even though the BG had no weapon other than his hands.

  4. #4
    Member Array raytracer's Avatar
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    General consensus is a self defense shooting will be harder to justify against an "unarmed" opponent.

    However, I've seen a video of a college bare knuckle boxing match in which one of the fighters went down under the first punch. Deader than fried chicken.

    Joe

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob69 View Post
    I took my ccw class and the instructor said if you can't get away to pull to defend yourself,even if they do not have a weapon because he has heard of people getting killed just from peolple using bare hands so just wondering if he was right or wrong. What is your opinion?
    Depends on the situation. You can use deadly force to defend yourself anytime you face imminent severe bodily injury or death. It does not require the BG to have a weapon, but you must have a reasonable basis for believing that the assailant could do you severe bodily harm without one. So it's going to be easier to make the case if it's a 300lb biker saying, "I'm gonna rip your arms off," that if it's a 90lb old lady.

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    To me the gun is the last resort.

    If I can retreat I will. If I can defuse the situation I will. Perhaps a simple, "I'm sorry sir, I didn't mean to bump into you. Please don't HURT me." I don't have anything to prove so I my ego won't be bruised.

    Although this may not be exactly sound advice....I was told by a man that I considered to be wise in the way of the gun and self defense that if you are going to draw then you damn well be ready to use it.

    What I question about the advice from your CCW instructor is what if the BG wants to go H2H and is in close. You risk getting your weapon taken from you and used against you unless you can put distance between you and him. My only less than lethal option right now comes in the form of a Surefire 6P to the head. Hopefully though, Akkido or other MA classes will be in the future as part of the overall Doc Holliday self defense game plan.

    In this situation pepper spray would be ideal but most of us are already overloaded with gear. I always have at least one gun plus a spare mag or two. Sometimes I carry a BUG. I always carry a Surefire. Add car keys, wallet, cellphone, chapstick, sunglasses, etc. and I am starting to feel like I need an ALICE pack for everything. I guess I could look at spray to hang on the car keys but that seems like it could be very awkward to deploy quickly.

    So to rant on, just my .02.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

  7. #7
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
    To me the gun is the last resort.
    I agree with you on the rest but to me the gun is second to last resort, my last resort is dying.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0.02 View Post
    I agree with you on the rest but to me the gun is second to last resort, my last resort is dying.


    +1
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0.02 View Post
    I agree with you on the rest but to me the gun is second to last resort, my last resort is dying.
    I never considered dying an option in my mindset.....but that is definately one way of looking at it my friend.

    Now please don't think I am being arrogant when I say dying isn't an option...It just that I EXPECT to win in a life or death struggle. When the SHTF I don't want any doubt in my mind.

    It is the same way with a great athlete. They expect to win whenever they cross that white line onto the playing field. I do know in the real world the good guys don't always win but when the time comes I expect to win.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
    Now please don't think I am being arrogant when I say dying isn't an option...It just that I EXPECT to win in a life or death struggle. When the SHTF I don't want any doubt in my mind.

    It is the same way with a great athlete. They expect to win whenever they cross that white line onto the playing field.
    Athletes who expect to win can end up getting overconfident and loosing. Of course, you don't want to be consumed by thoughts of loosing either, but I think a balance here is best.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Athletes who expect to win can end up getting overconfident and loosing. Of course, you don't want to be consumed by thoughts of loosing either, but I think a balance here is best.
    I see where you are coming from.

    Great athletes can and do become complacent.

    I am constantly looking at ways to improve myself.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

  12. #12
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    rob69... Welcome to the forum and I hope you stay and participate in this forum. There is a lot you can learn here. This site is full of serious people talking about a serious topic and we welcome any new people who are serious about the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon for protection.

    I believe the standard is that you have be placed in Immediate and Otherwise Unavoidable Fear/Danger of Death or Grave Bodily (Crippling) Injury.

    That also has to pass the "reasonable person" standard of would another person placed in the same situation reasonably believe the same fear of death or grave bodily injury. It is important to know that the threat must be Immediate and Otherwise Unavoidable.

    Just saying you were "In fear for your life" against a person half your size armed with a wiffle ball bat probably won't cut it. You'd be spending a long time behind bars if you tried to make that float. However, if the person has a water bottle and states it's full of sulfuric acid... You might be justified in using deadly force if he was in a position to squirt you with it.

    Three essential components go into being able to claim the above.

    1) The attacker must possess or have the Ability to kill or cripple you.

    2) The attacker must have the Opportunity to be able to kill or cripple you.

    3) You must be in Jeopardy, in such as the attacker has behaved in a way or made clear that he intends to kill or cripple you.

    Ability, Opportunity & Jeopardy are the three components that must all be present at the same time in order for you to reasonably be in fear of your life and thus are justified in using lethal force to defend yourself.

    What you must do as a responsible CCW holder is to seek out the knowledge and information that makes up what Ability means, what Opportunity means, and exactly comprises Jeopardy.

    There are many factors and situations that plays into all that like disparity of force, force in numbers, what constitutes a deadly weapon and a plethora of other nuances in the law that comprise deadly force justification. There are definitely times when shooting an unarmed man is justified. Shooting a person in the back can be explained satisfactorily depending on the dynamics of what was happening at the time.

    All this should be a topic and subject that a person who carries a gun should spend a significant amount of time studying and understanding.

    In the end, it is YOU that are responsible for the actions you take in the use of deadly force you unleash to repel an attack. If you don't think all this stuff is important to know and study then you are playing roulette with your livelihood, your freedom, and all you hold dear and valuable.

    You can learn a lot here at this forum and I hope you stay and become involved with us here. There are NO STUPID questions regarding this subject matter.

    Strapping on a gun and walking among the masses is as serious as serious can be and should be taken with a commesurate amount of maturity and responsibility. Any bad acts performed by one of us reflects badly on the rest of us and places our right to carry in jeopardy.
    Last edited by Bark'n; June 18th, 2007 at 03:58 AM. Reason: form and clarity
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #13
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    Interesting Thread

    Our actions and our reactions should never be carved into stone.
    There is a conscious thought process involved all the way up to the very instant of discharge.
    Human beings can process information incredibly quickly.
    I don't believe that drawing a firearm puts the defensive shooter on mandatory auto-pilot to end life to the exclusion of all other options such as standing down. It is a razor fine line.
    I'll enjoy getting into this some more but, right now have got to get to bed before the birds start singing their morning songs.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    I think that clearly, people are killed every day by someone who didn't have a gun or knife or club. Bare-hand killings happen.

    But the general ignorant public has been conditioned to believe that using a weapon to defend against an unarmed attacker is not justified. These are often the same people who say, "Just shoot him in the leg, you don't have to kill him!"

    Unless you have a guarantee that someone absolutely could not kill you without aid of a weapon -- and how could you ever have a guarantee of that? -- circumstance may well justify your using a weapon on someone who is "unarmed." I feel for the guy who has to defend such action in court, even though I may be fully supportive of his decision. It's an uphill battle for him.

  15. #15
    Ron
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    This thread, once again, emphasizes the awesome responsibility we undertake when we elect to carry a gun. It is one thing to state the legal requirements in the comfort of our home as we sit at our computer, it is quite another when we are faced with having to make a split second decision whether we can legally use deadly force, ie, do we have a reasonable belief that our life is threatened or that we will sustain serious physical injury.

    And then we can wind up having to defend our use of deadly force in a criminal and/or civil proceeding seeking damages, with a jury using hindsight to decide if we reacted correctly. To make it even worse, unless the "Castle Doctrine" applies, we will have the legal burden of proof.

    So, it is very wise advice to do everything possible to avoid having to draw your gun. I try real hard to leave my ego at home when I venture out. The consequences of not doing so, are just too onerous.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

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