Do you have a lawyer?

Do you have a lawyer?

This is a discussion on Do you have a lawyer? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Subtitle: Do you have a criminal defense lawyer? Something I've been thinking about recently is what I would do if I was involved in a ...

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Thread: Do you have a lawyer?

  1. #1
    Member Array OfClanMcnab's Avatar
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    Do you have a lawyer?

    Subtitle: Do you have a criminal defense lawyer?

    Something I've been thinking about recently is what I would do if I was involved in a shooting or some other CCW-type issue. My CCW instructor said the first thing to do is tell the police you want your lawyer. Don't give them any info; just call the lawyer immediately. Lately I realized that I didn't know who I would call. Prior to this, I just figured I would call my uncle, since he is a lawyer, but he is a small-town lawyer whose clients are farmers and probably has never dealt with a shooting. Having read quite a few stories of shootings and 'incidents' that fellow CCWers have been involved in, it is obvious that having a good lawyer who has dealt with the rougher side of the legal system would be a great benefit. Recently the MO legislation passed a bill that is similar to the Florida Castle Doctrine, but I would rather not take any chances and put my trust in a small-town lawyer and a brand-new Castle Doctrine bill with potential loopholes that could bite me in the... posterior.

    So what I did was spend a few minutes searching around the internet for decent criminal defense attornies in my area, and then put some numbers in my cell phone. Hopefully I never have to use these guys, but if something happens and I find myself with a smoking gun, a dead bad guy, and flashing lights and sirens, I have good, experienced attornies just a couple button presses away. I'm not sure the police will obligingly hook me up with Google access, so I figured I'd better get the searching done before the event occurs.

    I found this list right here on DefensiveCarry.com, which might be helpful to some of you: http://www.alumbankweb.com/cc-attorney.htm

    Here is an example of an attorney I found here in KC: http://www.stonedefense.com/


  2. #2
    Member Array Erich's Avatar
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    Have one? I am one!

    I've been doing this sort of work for years, and truth be told, I'd certainly call one of my colleagues to come assist me interview with police following a shooting (God forbid!). And many of my NM friends have my number on their cell phone for just such an eventuality.

  3. #3
    Ron
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    The generally accepted wisdom for those who carry a gun is to have consulted with an attorney experienced in CCW matters so that you have made a connection with that attorney, and to then put his or her phone number in your cell phone speed dial. If you are in a use of deadly force situation, you will be under enough stress as it is without having to first scurry about trying to locate an attorney.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  4. #4
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Yes.

  5. #5
    Member Array TonyB's Avatar
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    I took the NRA personal proection in the home class,last year and got the card of the lawyer who did the "legal" part of the class..that was worth the price of admission right there..hopefully I'll never need him.
    "Just because I'm paranoid,doesn't mean they're NOT after me...."

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    I have two that I would trust and have had conversations on the subject with both.

    Both said call 911 and then call the lawyer. Tell the police, politely, that you were in mortal fear and defended yourself. Further comments and answered questions would be through you lawyer.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  7. #7
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    Yes, I have a criminal attorney who understands the affirmative defense and have met with him personally. I pay him a nominal retainer annually so we already have an attorney/client relationship.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I would like to make a few comments about what I have learned about how to interact with responding LEO's if you are ever involved in a shooting. There are a few things you should point out to responding LEO's that will help your case and keep things that could exonerate you which otherwise may be lost forever.

    Most people on this forum know who Massad Ayoob is and the wealth of information he has to offer. I recently ordered the 1st season DVD set of Personal Defense TV from the Outdoor Channel of which Massad Ayoob has a segment on each episode.

    First thing, you don't want to say much... as you know anything you say, can and will be used against you. However Ayoob makes some excellent points regarding evidence.

    Spent shell casings have a tendency to vanish. Winds blowing across a highway will scatter shell casings or they get caught up in tire treads of passing cars, thus evidence that the BG actually fired at you may be lost forever if you don't point it out to responding LEO's as soon as they arrive.

    Ayoob recommends a Five Point Check List of things you should point out to responding LEO's when they arrive that won't hurt your case and can only help bolster your claim of Self Defense. They are as follows:

    1) Immediately point to the perpetrator and state "Officer, that man attacked me, I was in fear of my life and I was forced to defend myself!"

    2) Then state "I will sign a criminal complaint against him." This tells the LEO's that your willingness to sign a legal complaint against the guy for attacking you that you are probably in fact the victim and not the guy bleeding on the ground who is in fact doing a pretty good impression of a victim.

    After all, almost exclusively when LEO's respond to shootings, it is the guy bleeding on the ground who is usually the victim. Most shootings do not involved ccw holders who are the good guys.

    3) Then point to any evidence you have found before the LEO's have arrived such as a knife, a gun, spent brass from his gun, a ball bat and say to officers "Evidence is here, here, here and here" as you point it out to the LEO's. This ensures that evidence is noted by responding officers, spent shell casing don't vanish and that all evidence is preserved.

    4) If any witnesses have stayed around long enough for the police to arrive, they may not stay around long once police get there, or volunteer to come forward on their own. So say, Officer, the witnesses are here, and here and over there." and point them out to LEO's before they have a chance to leave.

    Having their statements affirming the fact that you said, "Stop, leave me alone, don't hurt me" or anything else they can be helpful to your case will be lost if they are allowed to leave the scene because you wanted to assert your right to remain silent.

    5) Finally say to the LEO's "Officer, I realize how serious this situation is and I will cooperate fully once I've had 24 hours to consult with my attorney!" And then clam up and keep your mouth shut! If they press you further, inform them that you've just been through a traumatic experience and again, you would like to speak with your attorney first and assure them they will have your full cooperation.


    A lot of people say "Lawyer Up" and say nothing right from the start, but as you can see from the above, there are several things that if you don't speak up and point out in the begining, critical evidence or testimony from bystanders may be lost from your case that would have exonerated you and make things a whole lot easier.

    I have also cleared that with my attorney who whole heartedly agrees, but said, don't be offering any more information other than name, age, date of birth and address. And also show them your CCW card as well.

    Remember, you are stuck with the cops who arrive on the scene to investigate. They may not be the best investigators or be having a bad day, but you can't ask for a new investigator.

    You want to help them preserve evidence and secure witnesses by pointing it/them out before that information is lost, but you don't want to offer anything else at that point.

    Also, try to be the first one to call 911. Ayoob explained that the first caller to 911 is usually considered to be, The Victim. The other guy, then by defaut, becomes the attacker.

    If the attacker you shot was only wounded and flee's the scene and goes to nearest hospital claiming to have just been mugged and attacked or flags down a policeman and he gets the first call to 911, guess who gets to play victim and who gets to play bad guy.

    I hope people here finds this information useful. Feel free to comment as I know you will. It's from discussions like these that we learn.

    Stay Safe!
    Last edited by Bark'n; June 19th, 2007 at 09:06 PM.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #8
    Member Array kahman's Avatar
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    Does anyone know a good lawyer for these kinds of cases in Las Vegas/Nevada?
    USA Carry - Concealed Carry Information, Reciprocity Maps, News & Articles, Forums, Directory and more!

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    How about a good lawyer in the central Kentucky area?

  10. #10
    Ron
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    [QUOTE=Bark'n;405048]Yes, I have a criminal attorney who understands the affirmative defense and have met with him personally. I pay him a nominal retainer annually so we already have an attorney/client relationship.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Nothing wrong with paying a retainer, but it is not necessary to do so. Just making contact with the attorney, discussing what he or she advises you to do if you are ever involved in having to use deadly force is sufficient.

    No problem with the other points you made. I don't think that any of it can be prejudicial to your situation. The important thing to remember is that what you say will be used against you, if you say the wrong thing, so the less said the better. In a stressful situation, we all have a tendcency to want to talk. Do your very best to control it.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  11. #11
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKelly View Post
    How about a good lawyer in the central Kentucky area?
    Check the CCW Attorney information link under "Forum Help and Extras." There are three Kentucky attorneys listed.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  12. #12
    Member Array xercise2nd's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reminder to get a lawyer, now, before the need ever arise. I was reminded first when I took the required course to get a FL non-res CCL, then when I took a Level II course. It had been on the back-burner of the to-do list. Every time it's come up on this board, I kept getting the nagging go-do-it! Well, got it done!

    Thanks for more reminders, too, from Ayoob. I will pass his suggestions by the lawyer to see if we're on the same page in that reagard.

  13. #13
    Member Array Sam Douthit's Avatar
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    Most if not all of the advice sounds good. I would be in the same fix about the lawyer. In a small town there are usually a couple of lawyers who will defend you regardless of the charge. You see them time after time on cases in the local courts or read about them in the local paper. I would call one of these guys. The police points from Ayoob sounds good if you have enough sense under stress to remember what to say. Keep it minimal.
    Sambo74
    SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

  14. #14
    New Member Array mdusn's Avatar
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    American self defense institute

    I was looking around for self defense lawyers and came across this website. Does anyone know anything about this organization, good or bad?

    http://www.americanselfdefense.com/

  15. #15
    Member Array OfClanMcnab's Avatar
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    Good post, Bark'n. I now have a good plan of action in my head. I'm not sure why it has taken me so long to get around to figuring this stuff out. I will also take your advice and contact one or more of these lawyers so I can get a feel for the law firm or lawyer, and also to see if they have any more specific advice. I would like to prevent paying a retainer fee, but if it isn't too much and there is an advantage to it, I suppose I will consider it.

    I believe the most important thing for all of us is to simply have contact information for a good lawyer, BEFORE an event occurs.

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