"No weapons" policies - what would you do?

This is a discussion on "No weapons" policies - what would you do? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In Missouri it is not illegal, in that it is not a crime; you would just have to leave the premises if asked, and if ...

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Thread: "No weapons" policies - what would you do?

  1. #16
    Member Array nicneufeld's Avatar
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    In Missouri it is not illegal, in that it is not a crime; you would just have to leave the premises if asked, and if you did not they could call the cops and you'd get fined. However, the university I attended did have a no weapons policy, with no clarification on CCW licences. So for me it wasn't a legal issue, it was a school policy issue.

    I'm out now, graduated last month. Just got my diploma this week, so I don't mind saying, concealed is concealed. It made me nervous sometimes because I was so close to graduating, but especially after the VT shootings, I'd have been more nervous about leaving my sidearm at home.

    That said; if it is a CRIME, ie., a matter of law and not just school policy, I would not carry. Getting my CCW revoked or going to a jail on a weapons charge is NOT acting responsibly for my family's safety.

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    He has not said that he resides in Oregon,

    That being said, if the state is Oregon than let me point to:

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:
    (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.


    If you are licensed in the state of Oregon for ccw, you are not prohibited to carry. I am not a lawyer, just a former reserve deputy, grew up in a law enforcement family, and know several NRA instructers who consulted 2A attorneys on this. All have interpreted that licensed concealed carriers are not prohibited. (Man I hate sound like I just laid out 5th party information in that sentence)

    We are prohibited from carrying into restricted federal govenment facilities, courthouses where the presiding judge has ruled the area to be weapon free, and Indian reservation land. Oregon law also states that no institution lower than the state legislature may bring into law or policy anything stricter than what state law is unless they have express authority given them by the state. So public businesses posting no weapons signs are pointedly ignored.

    That being said, the university can possibly charge you with criminal tresspass. However, they have to prove that a crime has taken place. They might rely on the fact that you were "WARNED" through their employment and student conduct manuals.

    Also from reading your travel and work routine, I gather that you probably live in the People's Republik of Portland. Just be mindful that the local governments there are frequently in the habit of ignoring state law and making up their own rules. It is possible that you could end up being arrested and charged on some local violation, which you would then have to go through the long, expensive legal battle of fighting just to get to a high enough state court so that you can be cleared.
    Last edited by SonofASniper; June 21st, 2007 at 07:25 PM.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Whatever you decide remember that many will advise concealed is concealed , and while this is true unemployed is unemployed , not to mention that a felony is the new girlfriend of b block . Read your states laws carefully , decide if its worth loosing your job ( or worse ) over , and only then make up your mind . No matter what you decide dont post it in a public venue .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Directly from the oregon website

    Ok I knew something bugged me with JD's post taken from handgunlawus.com.

    No offense JD, but yours is to chopped up and it isn't clear. Here is the chapter and sections dealing with the discussion.

    POSSESSION OF WEAPON OR DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE IN PUBLIC BUILDING OR COURT FACILITY



    166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise:

    (1) “Capitol building” means the Capitol, the State Office Building, the State Library Building, the Labor and Industries Building, the State Transportation Building, the Agriculture Building or the Public Service Building and includes any new buildings which may be constructed on the same grounds as an addition to the group of buildings listed in this subsection.

    (2) “Court facility” means a courthouse or that portion of any other building occupied by a circuit court, the Court of Appeals, the Supreme Court or the Oregon Tax Court or occupied by personnel related to the operations of those courts, or in which activities related to the operations of those courts take place.

    (3) “Loaded firearm” means:

    (a) A breech-loading firearm in which there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in or attached to the firearm including but not limited to, in a chamber, magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm.

    (b) A muzzle-loading firearm which is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball, shot or projectile in the barrel or cylinder.

    (4) “Public building” means a hospital, a capitol building, a public or private school, as defined in ORS 339.315, a college or university, a city hall or the residence of any state official elected by the state at large, and the grounds adjacent to each such building. The term also includes that portion of any other building occupied by an agency of the state or a municipal corporation, as defined in ORS 297.405, other than a court facility.

    (5) “Weapon” means:

    (a) A firearm;

    (b) Any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slingshot, metal knuckles or any similar instrument or a knife other than an ordinary pocket knife, the use of which could inflict injury upon a person or property;

    (c) Mace, tear gas, pepper mace or any similar deleterious agent as defined in ORS 163.211;

    (d) An electrical stun gun or any similar instrument;

    (e) A tear gas weapon as defined in ORS 163.211;

    (f) A club, bat, baton, billy club, bludgeon, knobkerrie, nunchaku, nightstick, truncheon or any similar instrument, the use of which could inflict injury upon a person or property; or

    (g) A dangerous or deadly weapon as those terms are defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §1; 1977 c.769 §2; 1979 c.398 §1; 1989 c.982 §4; 1993 c.741 §2; 1999 c.577 §2; 1999 c.782 §6; 2001 c.201 §1]



    166.370 Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility; exceptions; discharging firearm at school.

    (1) Any person who intentionally possesses a loaded or unloaded firearm or any other instrument used as a dangerous weapon, while in or on a public building, shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.

    (2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a person who intentionally possesses:

    (A) A firearm in a court facility is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony. A person who intentionally possesses a firearm in a court facility shall surrender the firearm to a law enforcement officer.

    (B) A weapon, other than a firearm, in a court facility may be required to surrender the weapon to a law enforcement officer or to immediately remove it from the court facility. A person who fails to comply with this subparagraph is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony.

    (b) The presiding judge of a judicial district may enter an order permitting the possession of specified weapons in a court facility.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) A sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers or a corrections officer while acting within the scope of employment.

    (b) A person summoned by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace, while the summoned person is engaged in assisting the officer.

    (c) An active or reserve member of the military forces of this state or the United States, when engaged in the performance of duty.

    (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.

    (e) A person who is authorized by the officer or agency that controls the public building to possess a firearm or dangerous weapon in that public building.

    (f) Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:

    (A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and

    (B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle.

    (4) The exceptions listed in subsection (3)(b) to (f) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section.

    (5)(a) Any person who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.

    (b) Paragraph (a) of this subsection does not apply to the discharge of a firearm:

    (A) As part of a program approved by a school in the school by an individual who is participating in the program; or

    (B) By a law enforcement officer acting in the officer’s official capacity.

    (6) Any weapon carried in violation of this section is subject to the forfeiture provisions of ORS 166.279.

    (7) Notwithstanding the fact that a person’s conduct in a single criminal episode constitutes a violation of both subsections (1) and (5) of this section, the district attorney may charge the person with only one of the offenses.

    (8) As used in this section, “dangerous weapon” means a dangerous weapon as that term is defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §§2,4; 1977 c.207 §2; 1979 c.398 §2; 1989 c.839 §22; 1989 c.982 §5; 1991 c.67 §39; 1993 c.625 §1; 1999 c.782 §7; 1999 c.1040 §4; 2001 c.666 §§24,36; 2003 c.614 §6]
    You can find all Oregon statutes here : http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/

    I hope this clears it up. JD's posting and bold sections are chopped up and not correct. No offense to you JD, I just don't want people to misinterpret it.
    Last edited by SonofASniper; June 21st, 2007 at 07:49 PM.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
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    One other thing to consider, some states forbid carry on public transportation - GA is one. Not sure what your state laws are regarding that but it's something you should look into.
    Jack

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Pitmaster's Avatar
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    Have you considered making an attempt to discuss the issue with the VP of Student Affairs explaining that since VT you have real concerns giving up your right for self-defense and may have to consider attending another school. Follow this up with a letter to the President, and maybe a few others. No matter what laudable goals a university may spout, they are a business and don't want to lose your tuition money. Will this be successful? Probably not, but its a start for the future rights of students.
    Pitmaster

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    HAGAR: To sign a peace treaty with the King of England.
    HELGA: Then why take all those weapons?
    HAGAR: First we gotta negotiate...

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    I think I may have found an answer to your question. I personally, would carry.

    According to the Mult. County Sherrif's office CHL permit pamphlet, Sheriff Bernie Giusto:

    On the back page of the pamphlet

    ***

    SCHOOLS
    If you possess a valid concealed handgun license in Oregon, and if you are over the age of 21, you are not prohibited from carrying your weapon on school property.

    ...NRA Quote edited out...

    However, most colleges have prohibitions on handgun possession contained in the Oregon Administrative Rules. Some of these rules specifically prohibit possession even by concealed handgun license holders currently OIT and OSU are two schools that have these rules. Check the OAR, or the campus security specific to the campus you plan to attend prior to taking your weapon there. You may be refused entry or expelled from the property and if you don't leave or if you come back, you could be arrested for trespassing. Criminal Trespass While in Possession of a Firearm is a Class A Misdemeanor.

    ***

    In Oregon, only the legislature can make a place illegal to carry. So if you get caught at school, the worst they can do is ask you to leave. So I think if you keep it properly concealed, it is perfectly 'legal' to carry there.

    It all depends on whether you'd prefer to be unarmed at school or asked to leave if you're ever caught.

  9. #23
    Member Array Randal16-1's Avatar
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    I would follow the rules. If you lose your CCW you will never get it back or you will have one hell of a time getting it back. You work hard to get it so do the right thing. Now with that said, I would improvise other tools. You could carry a cane, OC or something else. Remember right to carry is a tool, your brain is the weapon.


    Brian

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randal16-1 View Post
    I would follow the rules. If you lose your CCW you will never get it back or you will have one hell of a time getting it back.
    ...A school or an employer can't take away his permit or weapon...

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by still442 View Post
    What would you do, if you were me?
    I would ask them for permission to carry, which in the past has worked with me for several employers.

    If they said no, I'd find a different job or school.

  12. #26
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    Lightbulb

    Let's all remember that the right to self defense is a God given right and cannot be usurped by man. That being said and if the law does not prohibit it, I would go ahead and carry concealed and not worry about it.

  13. #27
    Member Array Detroittwister's Avatar
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    I would not carry on a school property, it is currently a pistol free zone in Michigan. I do carry at my place of employment even though they have a no weapons policy, this is a private policy and I am not breaking the law. I would face being fired if they found out, but with deep concealment, no one knows. I would rather be fired than dead.
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  14. #28
    Senior Member Array rljohns's Avatar
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    In Colorado it is not illegal at the University level, however some schools have policy against it. They might send a letter home to your parents. Most schools its a warning the first time.

  15. #29
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    I would follow the Laws of the state in which I reside. Violation of Laws subject you to fines, criminal record (felony or misdemeanor), and incarceration in a state or federal facility.

    Policies are statements of rules, guidelines and procedures that are agreed upon by a group or governing body, of which violations of policy may have certain consequences.

    In this case the consequences are usually stated in the institutions rule book or student manual and, may include removal from school, expulsion, termination of employment, but does not carry the weight of incarceration in a penal institution, criminal record, or apparently fines.

    It appears, at least in the state of Oregon that licensed CCW holders are clearly not subject to criminal offenses for carrying inside a school or university as stated in line (d) Subsection 3 of Section 1 just as it equally applies in line (a) of Subsection 3 of Section 1 states that the sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers are also exempt and allowed to carry in said schools or university.

    So I would think that carrying a weapon concealed in such places if licensed as CCW would only violate school/university Policy and not be a violation of Oregon State Statutes.

    Proceed accordingly.
    Last edited by Bark'n; June 21st, 2007 at 11:09 PM. Reason: clarity
    -Bark'n
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  16. #30
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    oops... almost forgot... IMHO I am not an attorney! (standard disclaimer)
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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