An Interesting Conversation With A Scared Friend

This is a discussion on An Interesting Conversation With A Scared Friend within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Congratulations on having the opportunity to teach a new shooter. In all my life, one of the most satisfying accomplishments I can look back on ...

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Thread: An Interesting Conversation With A Scared Friend

  1. #16
    Member Array General Geoff's Avatar
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    Congratulations on having the opportunity to teach a new shooter.



    In all my life, one of the most satisfying accomplishments I can look back on is teaching someone. Whether it's how to use a computer, or how to use a gun, teaching someone who previously had no handle on a subject, to the point of proficiency, is a wonderful feeling.


    Since she came to you, your work will be that much easier. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. But if the horse asks you where the water is, it's far more likely he'll want to drink!
    Discretion is the better part of valour; and a virtue beyond reproach.
    Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association

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  3. #17
    Member Array Spiff_P239's Avatar
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    My brother's in the Navy and even though the situation will likely be much worse if he ever has to pull the trigger, he is trained to "shoot to stop", not "shoot to kill."

  4. #18
    Member Array dls56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Fastwaker View Post
    I had a guy in my Concealed Carry class during the Q&A section ask the instructor: "So, when we have to draw and shoot somebody. We just keep shooting them until they are dead correct?"

    The instructor froze up for second, not only in confusion of where he got that idea from but the fact that nowhere in his 2 hour class did he every say Kill or keep shooting until dead.

    Shoot to stop the threat, not shoot to kill. If they die from loss of blood or possible Triangle Head shot then so be it. But I shoot to stop the threat.
    Approximately 30 years ago I went through a firearm training course for LEO work. One day two lawyers showed up and gave us their spiel. One lawyer was adamant about not shooting anyone for any reason even if they were shooting at us. The next lawyer told us that he wouldn't wait to be shot at; to shoot and in fact if we needed to shoot someone to be sure and kill them because a dead man can't sue you. He went as far as stating that if we needed to reload then do so but finish the deed.
    From that day forward I new there was middle ground on the subject I often wonder if that wasn't the intent all along. I believe it was an exercise alerting us to the very real legal ramifications of a shooting even when justified. This was back at a time when the gun grabbers were making a significant dent in our second amendment rights.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Probably not a Seal....

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiff_P239 View Post
    My brother's in the Navy and even though the situation will likely be much worse if he ever has to pull the trigger, he is trained to "shoot to stop", not "shoot to kill."
    I think it's safe to say your brother is NOT a SEAL, right? That's not disrespecting of our naval bretheren, either. It's just a different mindset. In all the 14 odd years I was associated with the US Army in both Infantry (as a serving officer) or Armor (IRR) I never heard the phrase: Shoot to STOP, not kill. I think any infantryman saying that would be carted off for a psych discharge. Yes we were taught not to kill wounded enemy or POWs but that is the law of land warfare. But we got "attaboys" for coming up with new techniques to kill the enemy as fast and as efficiently as possible.

    One of my sergeants was in 'Nam and he used to tell the troops about how the VC would efficiently swipe their supplies and sneak out without getting caught. So one day they put a handy burlap bag under a pile of trash and set a claymore on a trip wire inside the bag. It went off in the middle of the night. Next morning there was VC dangling from nearby trees. They never had another problem with losing supplies. But does that sound "fair?" Heck no! It's war.

    And I would LOVE to see an M1A1 Abrams tank shoot any of it's weapons with the thought of stopping and not killing!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation +1!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac View Post
    You don't shoot to kill.

    You shoot to LIVE.
    Well said and AMEN.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #21
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    "Approximately 30 years ago I went through a firearm training course for LEO work. One day two lawyers showed up and gave us their spiel. One lawyer was adamant about not shooting anyone for any reason even if they were shooting at us. The next lawyer told us that he wouldn't wait to be shot at; to shoot and in fact if we needed to shoot someone to be sure and kill them because a dead man can't sue you. He went as far as stating that if we needed to reload then do so but finish the deed.
    From that day forward I new there was middle ground on the subject I often wonder if that wasn't the intent all along. I believe it was an exercise alerting us to the very real legal ramifications of a shooting even when justified. This was back at a time when the gun grabbers were making a significant dent in our second amendment rights."




    Yep, and a lot of case law has come down the pike in the 30 years in between the advice you recieved as well. I'm glad you took the stance that there is a middle ground somewhere in betweet the two lawyers advice for the class.

    Things have changed quite a bit in case law, prosecutions and justifible defense but the tenants required to justify using lethal force has pretty much stayed the same.

    Simply as a reminder... You must be in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable fear of death or crippling injury" if you intend to successfully claim justifiable use of lethal force in defending yourself.

    The three components which meets the reasonable persons standard of believing you are in fact fear of death or crippling injury are that the assailant posseses the Ability to emploly deadly force against you, has the Opportunity to employ said deadly force against you, and having those two components have placed you in jeopardy of being killed by threat or deed.

    Stay within those rather narrow confines and you should come out with a justifiable conclusion to your use of lethal force to repel the attack.

    Everything else or anything less of meeting the above tenents just muddies the waters.

    Stay Safe and Stay Armed! (one does not go without the other)
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question Intent...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Simply as a reminder... You must be in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable fear of death or crippling injury" if you intend to successfully claim justifiable use of lethal force in defending yourself.

    The three components which meets the reasonable persons standard of believing you are in fact fear of death or crippling injury are that the assailant posseses the Ability to emploly deadly force against you, has the Opportunity to employ said deadly force against you, and having those two components have placed you in jeopardy of being killed by threat or deed.Stay Safe and Stay Armed! (one does not go without the other)
    I THINK (depending on the jurisdiction) that you're going to have to show a specific intent to harm in the manner you suggest. Ability and opportunity mean little if the violence isn't being directed at you for the specific purpose of causing your death or great bodily harm. Like being in the middle of a riot with death and destruction all around doesn't justify shooting at anybody unless they're after YOU. A generalized demonstration of intent (like a riot) isn't enough to justify specific deadly force against another person. But I went to law school a long time ago....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #23
    Member Array dls56's Avatar
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    I find my position as an armed citizen is slightly different than it was as a LEO. While wearing a badge my mindset was different than it is now. I find myself being much more cautious now than then. Maybe it's due to age but more likely attributable to my status.
    Don't misconstrue this to think that I'm not willing to protect myself and others if trouble finds me. I no longer go looking for BG's that's the difference.

  10. #24
    Ex Member Array jmsstnr's Avatar
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    My wife really enjoyed 'Women on Target' offered through the NRA. She absolutely raved about it.

    Next step is basic pistol, then who knows.
    Last edited by jmsstnr; June 25th, 2007 at 04:25 PM. Reason: additional info

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I THINK (depending on the jurisdiction) that you're going to have to show a specific intent to harm in the manner you suggest. Ability and opportunity mean little if the violence isn't being directed at you for the specific purpose of causing your death or great bodily harm. Like being in the middle of a riot with death and destruction all around doesn't justify shooting at anybody unless they're after YOU. A generalized demonstration of intent (like a riot) isn't enough to justify specific deadly force against another person. But I went to law school a long time ago....

    ExSoldier... Can you explain a little further? You have me a bit confused.

    I was thinking the "jeopardy" component is what is meant by the threat being directed at you.

    Always interested in learning more and having any points of confusion clarified.


    edit: Ok, rereading my 1st I think I left out when describing being in "Jeopardy" I should have said "have placed you in jeopardy of being killed by threat or deed directed toward you"

    I should have worded the whole statement a little different. (I have made other posts where I was much more clear in stating that. No excuse!)

    Is that what you are referring to?
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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