Cops that don't even know what sidearm they are carrying...
This is a discussion on Cops that don't even know what sidearm they are carrying... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ispcapt
If you go to one of the car forums the motorheads over there can't understand why cops don't know what speed ...
June 27th, 2007 08:22 PM
Oh please. Knowing your differential gear ratio is a little different from knowing the make and model of the vehicle you're driving. I'm sorry, if someone drives around every day in a Ford Crown Victoria, which is plastered with emblems saying "Ford", and then can't tell me that it's a Ford, then they're obviously so unobservant that they have no business being a cop.
Originally Posted by ispcapt
If you use a computer, and you can't tell me whether you're proficient with Windows, Mac, or Linux, then you again have no business taking a job involving computers since you can't even tell me the most basic thing, which is what tool you're proficient with.
Suppose I try to hire some guy for a job driving a truck. His resume says he's proficient at driving vehicles. I show him the truck, and he can't figure out how to put it in "drive" because the shift lever only says 1-5 and R, or what the pedal left of the brake pedal is for. I ask him what kind of vehicles he used to drive in previous jobs, and he can't tell me. Obviously, he's incompetent since he not only doesn't know how to operate that vehicle, but doesn't even know enough to know he's incompetent at that or any particular vehicle type. That's a scary level of incompetence.
This is a technological society; if you don't know the most basic things about the tools you use every day, and can't even name them so that you can tell people what you are and are not proficient with, then you have no business in a job using those tools. You're incompetent, by the very definition of the word.
Some of the guys here sound like they'd gladly hire a Cessna pilot to fly a helicopter.
June 27th, 2007 08:37 PM
Having worked gates for years, I can agree besides it makes the 8+- 12+ hour shifts go by faster and it is amazing how easy it is to screw with people on a gate or an ECP (entry control point) if you are working buildings or aircraft. I have done a number of random car searches because I had never seen that make or model before or because it looked like a good car to search. “Why are you searching my car SGT?” “Sir or Ma’am we are doing random vehicle searches today I appreciate your cooperation” That always sounds better then “and you are the lucky winner.” God help us after some of my Airmen watched Super Trooper.
Originally Posted by A1C Lickey
"Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
- William Munny (Clint Eastwood in the Unfrogivin)
“The graveyards are full of indispensable men.” – Napoleon Bonaparte
“My Idea of a fair fight is beating baby seals with a club”
June 27th, 2007 09:14 PM
Really? Well, I was asked that question while sitting in a restaurant. Got the 20 questions about the way my squad was equipped, ie, rear end ratio, what alternator, what speed rating on the tires, what amp battery.
Originally Posted by dwolsten
As far as the computer, another time I was asked what system it operated on to contact HQ, how much memory it required, and several other questions.
Each of those examples I gave were from personal experience from being asked those types of questions.
This is where your argument falls apart. You're asking the driving if he knows how to operate his equipment. You're not asking the driver to be a mechanic. Same with the cop who carries the gun. He may know how to operate the equipment but he doesn't need to know which weight spring is needed, what weight trigger, etc. He just needs to know how to make it function. If you want to know the particulars of a cop's gun then you ask their "mechanics", the range officer.
Originally Posted by dwolsten
Once again, it may also be the guy gets tired of hearing all the "experts" question what he's carrying. You want an example of how the questioning goes? He's some I've been involved in:
Q: What kind of gun are you carrying?
Q: What for? Those are junk. I'd never have a S&W.
Q: What bullet are you carrying?
Q: I wouldn't work for a dept who made me carry a 9mm.
Q: How many people have you gotten to kill? (this asked by a guy in his 60s)
Then you get the follow on comments from the "expert" on how if he were a cop he'd carry some geewhiz latest gun rag sales pitch with mercury coated bullets.
So to cut thru all their BS and garbage it's a whole lot easier to tell them you don't know or make up some off the wall made up gun/caliber. Even then you'd be surprised at how many times these "experts" come up with some line of BS. I once told a guy the rd we carried was a 9mm necked up to a .45. The answer I got? He replied "Yeah I've got one of those too but I don't like it much."
June 27th, 2007 09:53 PM
ispcapt you didn't counter dwolsten's point at all...
dwolsten is 100% correct. You can't tell me that you don't believe that a police officer should know what kind of gun he is carrying. Come on. No one is saying that an officer needs to know everything about his/her gun. No one said they need to know how many lbs of pressure it takes to pull the trigger. We have only stated that a police officer should know what kind of firearm he/she is using and the basics--caliber, capacity, layout, safeties, ect.
Also, there is a distinct difference in THIS particular tool the officer has at his/her disposal. This tool will KILL. You can't really say the same about pepper spray, hand-cuffs, flashlights, ect. I don't think anyone would really be bothered if a police officer didn't know what brand handcuffs they are using. A firearm is different. Arguing that it is one among many different tools the officer has at his disposal isn't really fair. Sure its a tool--it just so happens to be a very powerful, possibly lethal tool.
June 27th, 2007 10:04 PM
I'll chime in.. Ispcapt's point (and Sixto's too) is that the gun is only an issue to US because we are gun folk. Just like the level of knowledge about the car is an issue to car folk... and just like a gun, the car can kill. It is, to many cops, just a tool.. just as lethal as a car, flashlight, Pepper Spray, etc.
Originally Posted by kavity
We are gun people, we go to extra lengths to learn more about our weapon in particular, and firearms in general (thats why we're here isn't it?). Would it be nice if all LEOs were like the LEOs that we have here and were gun folk? Sure it would.. and if this was a Car enthusiast forum, we'd be asking "wouldn't it be nice if the LEOs actually knew something about the car that they spend a majority of their day in?"
June 27th, 2007 10:14 PM
Except I guarantee that the officers know what kind of vehicle they are driving and how to operate it--where the breaks are, the e-brake, the turn signals, the lights, the sirens, ect. They don't need to know what the tire pressure is, how heavy it is, ect. I never said that the LEOs needed to know the specifics. But you need to know the basics.
Originally Posted by jackofspades
(Also, I feel like a counter argument to that ^^ would be something along the lines of "some cops don't know what kinda car they drive but they can operate it". My response to that is: That is just another level of incompetence that is unacceptable for a police officer imho.)
June 27th, 2007 10:20 PM
And I'll guarantee that LEOs know how to use their firearms and have had at least basic training in the usage of them. Doesn't mean they want to know, or care about knowing what to them might be "little details" like caliber, manufacturer, etc. And, as has been stated by Sixto and Ispcapt, just because the LEO doesn't want to talk guns with you, doesn't mean they don't know the answers to your questions.
Originally Posted by kavity
June 27th, 2007 10:27 PM
Heres where your wrong... again. The argument is not about if the officer knows how to operate the Glock or not. Heck, my toddler knows how to do that. The question is if he knows the model or not.
Originally Posted by kavity
I say who cares, its trivial. You say he cannot perform his job if he does not know the model number. I dont know the model ASP I carry. I also dont know what radio I talk on day in and day out. I use that far more than anything else. I promise you I know how to use them. I carry two cell phones... I cant tell you want the model is on those too. I'm sure those will play a role in saving my backside before the gun ever will.
FWIW, many officers (or people in general) dont know what car model they are driving anyway. You dont see massive death on the roads do ya?
June 27th, 2007 11:27 PM
Yep, that is about par for the course almost anywhere in life. Trust me I have people at work that I wouldn't trust to be capable of even licking a postage stamp.
Originally Posted by mech1369dlw
As far as whether a LEO is gun savy or not, I don't really care one way or another. As long as he/she is profcient and safe with it it doesn't matter to me. I would much rather a police officer be educated about legal gun ownership and concealed carry among civilians than what make or model the issue sidearm is.
Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!
June 28th, 2007 12:00 AM
No one is saying that at all. But they don't need to know all the inner workings either. They need to know how it works and how to do immediate action drills.
Originally Posted by kavity
What you are missing is the "I don't know answers" is usually from a guy who just gets sick and tired of hearing the same questions from "experts" who then go on to give a line of BS about what they think a cop should be carrying.
More cops are killed by and in squad cars than by guns.
Originally Posted by kavity
And just FYI, yeah, I've been asked about OC, handcuffs, and flashlights. Until you've worn the uniform you can't believe the inane questions LEOs get. It's one thing when the questions are from a kid but more often than not the questions come from some 1/2wit who is suppose to be grown up.
June 28th, 2007 03:40 AM
There'd be a whole lot of dead people if I didn't know everything about my equipment.
The number of pieces of equipment I carry and use out numbers the average LEO's probably 10:1.
The 12 Lead ECG monitor alone costs over $20,000. I'm not a bio-tech repairman but I know how it works, how to troubleshoot it, how to maintain it, and I even know what each and every button on it does and how to read the squiggly lines on the paper it spits out.
Not to mention the over 35-45 drugs we carry. Trade name, generic name, action, indications, contra-indications, side effects, doses, how supplied, and how they interact with the hundreds of other drugs patients take in their homes.
I don't think it's too much to ask the average LEO to at least know what brand, model and caliber weapon they carry.
I know that a lot of posts point out they are just misdirecting peoples curiosity about their weapons from a safety standpoint however, there are the ones who truly do not even know what make and model they carry. That, I don't understand!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
June 28th, 2007 05:42 AM
Heck, I had a .40 S&W Glock once I couldn't tell you what Glock model it was beyond that...I don't know how you Glock guys keep up with what Glock model is what caliber. It could be the guy was an XD or 1911 guy that was forced to carry a Glock at work. He would be as clueless as the rest of us that won't carry a Glock unless we had to.
May be cops should but I have a former Marine buddy that was in Viet Nam that carried a 1911 that had no clue what I was talking about when I mentioned a new 1911 to him.
I'm not sure it's really necessary to know what Glock model a pistol is if you can clean it and hit what your aiming at if your not turning it into the ultimate pistol.
"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
They are left in full possession of them."
Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
June 28th, 2007 08:49 AM
Chatted with a uniformed LEO in a grocery line
I remember once I talked with a female cop and she had no idea what caliber her handgun was, but she was "pretty sure" it was a glock.
June 28th, 2007 09:26 AM
I think some cops like to play dumb with private citizens who ask questions such as "What kind of gun do you carry?".
However, I've witnessed the poor shooting skill of more than a few cops at the local range. Their groups at twenty-five feet resemble shotgun patterns at twenty-five yards.
I also met a retired State trooper who is a champion pistol shooter. His skill with a handgun is amazing. And one bad guy - that I know of - made the instantly fatal mistake of shooting at this fellow.
And Jesus said, "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
I am a peaceful man. But I am not a pacifist.
June 28th, 2007 11:23 AM
I've always been of the opinion that if the armed forces can teach a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears 17 year old kids how to disassemble, clean, and reassemble fairly complex weapons such as M-14s and M-60s, police departments should be able to teach their officers to do the same with a simple handgun.
In my ideal department, every watch would report an hour early once a month, clear their weapons, and field strip them for inspection. Magazines would be unloaded and the rounds collected for range ammo, and new ammo issued. Any deficiencies would be noted and entered in that officer's yearly performance review.
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Opinions expressed here are based upon Michigan state law ONLY. Other state laws may differ. Know and observe your local laws.
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