Reponsibilities of a CHP holder....

This is a discussion on Reponsibilities of a CHP holder.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have my CHP and carry. What has concerned me lately is my responsibilities during an attack in a building that I'm in. What are ...

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Thread: Reponsibilities of a CHP holder....

  1. #1
    Member Array sethmark's Avatar
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    Reponsibilities of a CHP holder....

    I have my CHP and carry. What has concerned me lately is my responsibilities during an attack in a building that I'm in. What are the laws (esp. in Virginia), precedents, and personal anecdotes regarding this?

    What would you do if you were in a convenience store getting robbed at gun point?

    How about a random shooting in an office building? Or if some BG opens fire in a shopping mall?

    What is the thought process regarding acting on someone elses behalf? I learned during my CHP class that the first act should be AVOIDING the conflict, not engaging in it.

    Seth

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    You'll get lots of answers. Mine is, you're the one who has to look at yourself in the mirror each morning. Do what you can best live with.

    Edit to add, and this may sound cold, but I've done triage: my decision would be based, in part, on the apparent worth and viability of the individual(s) being threatened.

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    Member Array sethmark's Avatar
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    I'm counting on lots of answers and some conflicting opinions. My feeling is that a conversation regarding this topic will enlighten me (and probably some other folks) about the things they should be thing about when the SHTF.

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    You have too many random scenarios seth. Each can be different in an infinite number of ways. You class advice is good, avoidance techniques I hope were taught. Remember you have no legal obligation to get involved in defense of others. I feel it is a moral obligation if practical but it is not legally required. Most states say you can use deadly force in defense of self or others. I assume VA is the same but you have to learn your states laws. I would not rush into any situation guns blazing but I would hope I would have the courage to help another in trouble. Only as I said if it were practical.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Member Array Schwebel's Avatar
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    Each situation has its own set of cicurmstances, no two are alike. I suggest reading the tactical scenarios section of this forum. I have gained lots of insight there. Prepare your mind, it's your best self defense weapon. I have been in a few circumstances were I thought I could suffer great bodily injury/harm, and actually it seems instinct kicks in and you really don't end up thinking what to do, you just do it.

  7. #6
    Member Array sethmark's Avatar
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    The point of my question wasn't individual scenarios.... but the question:

    What is the thought process regarding acting on someone elses behalf?

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    First, things aren't always as they appear. Cases of mistaken identity shootings abound.

    That said, it is sometimes best to standby and become a good witness in what happened. (sometimes!)

    Also, bear in mind, you are not a LEO with a "Duty to Act!" Second, if you are a LEO, but off duty, you are still basically an armed citizen at that point in the fact that you do not have all your on duty LEO resources at hand. No two way radio, possibly no handcuffs, OC spray, expandable baton, etc. (maybe you do have all that) The point is, often times a lone armed citizen is not adequately prepared to deal with an armed stand off situation and all the dynamics that is part of that. (I also said, "often times") That doesn't mean you can't solve the problem, just be aware of all the pitfalls before you decide to be proactive.

    Rob72 also has a point, you do have to live with yourself regardless of what you do.

    Now, you have to bear in mind, if you insert yourself into the mix and things go bad... you may end up sharing a seat at the defendants table in court. That is a distinct possibility! It does happen.

    Regarding an armed robbery situation. I have seen hundreds of surveillance video in which armed robbers held a gun to the victims head and never fired a shot after getting their money! I have also seen, to a much, much lesser degree when the armed robber went ahead and executed the victim AFTER getting the money.

    If an armed robber is holding someone at gunpoint and you go up and shoot the armed robber in an attempt to keep them from shooting an innocent person, your actions may in fact cause the robber to shoot the victim. Unless you destroy the brainstem with your shot, even if you kill the robber, his reflex could make him pull the trigger.

    For the most part, I have played out a lot of scenario's in my head in advance and in a situation like an armed robbery, I will not start shooting unless the bad guy shoots someone or I know it is going bad fast. More than likely I will standby and become a good witness to the crime and report as much as possible to LEO when they arrive.

    Armed robberies happen a thousand times a day across the U. S. without people getting killed.

    Still, the best advice is... You have to act on an individual case by case basis as things play out before you!

    Having as much training as possible allows you much more options in any of these cases.

    Will I say that I won't act and end up shooting first? Absolutely NOT! The case may come where I do intervene and take a shot before any others are fired. But I am more prepared to standby and respond to what the BG actions dictate.

    There are no good answers to the question you asked as it is often a Moral Decision to be made as opposed to a Legal Decision to be made.

    Remember, your main goal is for "you" to survive and go home to your family!

    You family will suffer greatly if not totally unable to recover if you are 6 feet in the ground or spending a big portion of your life in the penitentary for manslaughter or murder.

    Search around the forum... there have been many posts regarding your question and post. TONS of Great information and opinions have been shed on these pages on this very topic!

    Good luck, stay safe, stay armed!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Member Array gunlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethmark View Post
    The point of my question wasn't individual scenarios.... but the question:

    What is the thought process regarding acting on someone elses behalf?
    It's kinda hard to focus on your question w/o a scenario and it would have a lot to do with who you were defending (loved one, boss, friend, total stranger, mass killing etc).

    Edit: Great response Bark'n.

  10. #9
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    If you're lucky - really lucky - you might have a few seconds to consider things when you need to act. So you are wise to consider it now.
    If you shoot someone, anyone, no matter how bad they are and no matter what they were doing, expect to be arrested and possibly charged, even litigated against by his family - if you can't handle that then you need to know up front.
    If you shoot someone you will have to live with that, even if they had a knife to a child's throat, you killed a human - if you can't handle that you need to know up front.
    If you shoot someone you'll be in the papers and on TV - if you can't handle that you need to know up front.

    Hopefully you value your life and the life of your family enough to be able to cope with the above, we all believe that to be the case, but when you are protecting a complete stranger - for all intents and purposes being a surrogate cop - then it might get complicated in your own head.
    You might look back one day during the court case when the victim's family is saying this and that and it looks like you might lose, you might think 'was it worth it, helping out and saving those people?'

    I hope not, we need decent folk to step up and act positively.
    But it does require analysis, self introspection of all the negatives that may come after the kill.

    Good luck.

    Whatever happens, do the right thing.

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    Pete, +1
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    What is the thought process regarding acting on someone elses behalf?
    Well - thinking time, at the time, will be brief, very brief. Pre-planning is OK in as much as you have to decide whether you might get involved but IMO no amount of previous planning can possibly set you up for a simple "I do" or "I don't" - "I will" or "I won't."

    If your personal philosophy is such that would in essence not wish to see someone attacked and even killed before your very eyes then perhaps you might get involved protectively.

    I will otherwise state my very boring and oft offered thought - "Play it as you see it". Somehow I doubt any amount of thought process planning and analysis will be enough to solve a problem in extremis ... certainly avoidance is desirable but - for many of us fortunately we'll never know.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    Most of these guys have said the important stuff. I would just like to add that people VERY rarely "rise to the occasion." Most people, as an instructor once told me, "revert to their level of training." If you haven't properly trained you probably won't act--even if you think you will. My dad, a career soldier, said he has seen young privates completely freeze during their first couple of firefights. It literally takes a smack in the face to knock sense back into them.

    The better trained you are the more prepared you will be if a situation ever presents itself.

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    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    I would whip out my concealed carry badge to let the cops know I'm the goodguy.

    seriously though. We can play the what if game untill we die. What if there is more than one, what if there are kids in danger, what if all he wanted was the money. Only you can decide what you are going to do. It would be bad if I physically interjected myself into a combat situation. (see pic below) My game plan is to gather as many sheeple as possible behind me and allow only the police to come through the door/entryway to secure the scene.

    The stop~n~rob is a little different. My decision would be dependant upon how aggressive and violent the perp was. If he comes in, sets a gun on the counter and simply says open the register I don't think I would try to stop it. The money in the register is not worth anyones life. If they walk in pistol whip the clerk, waive the gun in their face, knock stuff around like a twacked out thug, I would be much more inclined to belive that there is Bodily harm intended along with the robbery. I might draw and shoot.

    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

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    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    I used to to be of the "Me and Mine camp."

    There are problems of not knowing the situation:
    I'm sure everyone has heard an anecdote about a CCW carrier causing a killer/felon/BG to getaway from an undercover officer.

    Or becoming a victim yourself:
    Or the guy that got stabbed trying to stop a fight in a parking lot.

    Both are great cases for keeping to yourself.

    Then, I remember what happened to my wife before we met, and I read a story like Lima's and wonder if I could live with myself for NOT doing anything.

    Every person is different, every situation is different, every response is different.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

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    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    It would have to be an extremely clear cut situation before I inject myself in someone else's conflict.

    Put me in the "me and mine" category for the overwhelming majority of situations.

    The pain and hassle that will accompany shooting a criminal is probably only worth it if it is your life or that of kin in danger.

    Another thing to consider. Why should one risk it all for someone else who will not take an active role in their defense?

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