Point shooting

This is a discussion on Point shooting within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; While I was layed up in the hospitaal I read a great book on one handed point shooting by Rex applegate and another writer whose ...

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Thread: Point shooting

  1. #1
    Member Array Skysoldier's Avatar
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    Point shooting

    While I was layed up in the hospitaal I read a great book on one handed point shooting by Rex applegate and another writer whose name I can't remember that was really great. Its really not point shooting I guess because you look at the sights and the threat with kind of a flash sight picture. After I got back to shooting I worked with it quite a bit using a Smith bodyguard and a Glock 26 and for up close and personal it really works. Up to 7-10 feet its not hard to keep all your shots in the "zone" I know it won't take the place of two handed sighted fire but for up clase and quick its a great tool in our concealed carry bag of tricks.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    IBTL lol

    Most agree that there is a time and place for " unaimed fire " , the devision comes as to just where the divide lies . There are most likely 30 or 40 threads on this on this board alone . I am in the " sighted fire " camp, but respect the trainers here who teach unsighted or maby i should say non sighted .. anyway the point and bang interface .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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    Hi Sky - in fact hopefully if you run a search here you may find one or two interesting threads on this kinda subject.

    It can and sometimes does become almost contraversial because of folk's different takes on it but bottom line to me has always been - it is well useful to be able to shoot unsighted, and even from retention and still get the job done.
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    Member Array bobernet's Avatar
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    I can understand the usefulness when you have to fire from retention for some reason or if your sights cannot be used due to the lack of lighting*, but in the majority of situations... if a practiced person can clear concealment, present to target and fire a sighted controlled pair in less than 2 seconds, I don't see how much faster you're going to get with unsighted fire or "point shooting."

    And that old adage about not being able to miss fast enough to win a gun fight. The extra half second (?) it might take to actually use your sights might make the difference between a shot that stops and a miss that costs you time, ammo and increases your stress-level.

    * In the vast majority of situations a normal person would encounter, if there isn't enough light to use your sights, there probably isn't enough light to ID a threat and you shouldn't be firing anyway.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobernet View Post
    I can understand the usefulness when you have to fire from retention for some reason or if your sights cannot be used due to the lack of lighting*, but in the majority of situations... if a practiced person can clear concealment, present to target and fire a sighted controlled pair in less than 2 seconds, I don't see how much faster you're going to get with unsighted fire or "point shooting."
    The big advantage of point shooting isn't the ability to shoot a bit more quickly, it's the ability to shoot on the move. Explosive movement off the X is the best way to keep from getting hit in a gunfight. Sighted shooting isn't really compatible with this. You do see some IPSC shooters using sighted shooting while moving, but the bent knee sort of crabwalk that they use isn't fast enough to keep from getting hit. The only way to move fast enough while shooting is to use some sort of point shooting variant.

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    Distinguished Member Array Chooie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    The big advantage of point shooting isn't the ability to shoot a bit more quickly, it's the ability to shoot on the move. Explosive movement off the X is the best way to keep from getting hit in a gunfight. Sighted shooting isn't really compatible with this. You do see some IPSC shooters using sighted shooting while moving, but the bent knee sort of crabwalk that they use isn't fast enough to keep from getting hit. The only way to move fast enough while shooting is to use some sort of point shooting variant.
    If you want good practice with moving target acquisition, while you are moving, head down to your local paintball field and join a walk-on game on the speedball/airball field. There is no concealment, minimal cover, and everything is hectic and fluid. I've been part of 10v10 games that lasted all of 20 seconds because one team was just that much more mobile than the other. Besides that, it's fun - granted, you're not using a handgun, but it sure puts you in the right mindset.

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    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    there's an excellent example of some point shooting skills on a video on downrange tv.

    it was made by D.R. Middlebrooks

    http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm

    to see it...scroll down to "surgical point shooting"

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    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    No defensive handgunner's skillset is complete without the ability to deliver decisive hits at close in distances without using the sights, or using them much at all.

    I practice point shooting more than I practice aimed fire. But I do practice both and I am lucky that I have access where I can practice all those combinations on steel while moving or static, drawing from concealment, and from unusual positions such as prone, on the side prone, and supine (on my back).

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    Member Array Flippinstk's Avatar
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    Use sights IF ABLE..... but having the ability to accurately point shoot is a great advantage! And having the abiity to do it with confidence is even a better advantage! Practice is the key.... lots of rounds and lots of patience and having someone there to critique you or being able to self critique is also crutial. I've watched many at the range just THROWING LEAD and not being able to put a magazine full of rounds into a pie plate size group. Taking a course (i've found) is very instrumental in maximizing your skills. Reading your hits and being able to adjust. Trigger control... indexing your gun to point where you WANT it to point. Body control to not flinch... anticipate... whack...pull... or over press the trigger......... OH MY so much to remember. Like I said... take a course...learn from someone that you have researched and asked about.... cause anyone can instruct, but only a few can teach. DRY FIRE.. exersize this and you will become one with your trigger cause you really need to know when it breaks from takeup to firing! I did take DR. Middlebrook's course that phaed gave you the thread to view a clip too and I can tell you that the man knows his stuff! BUT.... just my .02 practice everything so you have it to use!
    Alex G.
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    Member Array ttpete's Avatar
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    Put a set of Crimson Trace Lasergrips on the gun. You will learn point shooting LOTS quicker with them. They also are good for dry fire practice.
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    Point shooting

    I do it and practice as though it was a snake

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    Member Array Linda's Avatar
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    Point shooting is an important and essential part of defensive shooting. We can all stand behind a bench 15-21' away from our paper targets and throw lead down the range all day. No real need to learn how to point shoot at that distance. But in a truly defensive situation, it's not going to be 15-21' away. It's going to be up close and personal, within 5', most likely much closer. If grabbed by someone from the front, point shooting is your only option. If blocked/restrained or somehow close quarters, point shooting is the only option. Perhaps your upper arm has been injured and you can no longer lift the arm beyond your waist. There is no way you're going to bring the firearm up to eye level to place sights on the bad guy. If someone is truly practicing "defensive shooting", then point shooting had better be part of their routine practice sessions.
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    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    I have trained allot with the Applegate/Fairbairn method of Point index shooting. I believe in it. After all they actually used these methods in real combat and were very successful. Allot more successful than say the NYPD who is trained in the modern technique and have a avg hit rate of around 18%. I also use sighted fire at longer ranges(past 10-15'). I have used both in the real world not just in a training enviornment so I know it works.

    D.R. Middlebrooks Has some good stuff on his site. http://www.tacticalshooting.com/academy.html

    I don't shoot exactly like DR but it's not a bad place to start.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

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    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    I do not like to use the term point shooting but tend to lean more to [I]gun indexing or target focus. When you say point shooting everyone imagines that you have the gun down around the waist line.

    There is a place for target focused shooting, at extreme close quarters retention shooting is a good skill to have out to just out of one arms length. As distance and proximity to target changes the gun can be brought to a higher visual line until the gun can be visualized in some fashion. Then as distance allows we can further bring the gun into a more visual plane until we can use the sights, this is only if proximity to target allows.

    If attacked physically from the rear a small fixed blade knife carried on the center line of the body is a much more useful tool at that point.

    If my primary gun hand/arm is injured to the point it cannot be utilized you should know how to use the other one as well.

    Point shooting is an important and essential part of defensive shooting. We can all stand behind a bench 15-21' away from our paper targets and throw lead down the range all day. No real need to learn how to point shoot at that distance. But in a truly defensive situation, it's not going to be 15-21' away. It's going to be up close and personal, within 5', most likely much closer. If grabbed by someone from the front, point shooting is your only option. If you limit yourself to just a gun.

    If blocked/restrained or somehow close quarters, point shooting is the only option. If you limit yourself to just a gun.

    Perhaps your upper arm has been injured and you can no longer lift the arm beyond your waist. There is no way you're going to bring the firearm up to eye level to place sights on the bad guy. Thats why we have two hands and we should know how to use both of them.

    If someone is truly practicing "defensive shooting", then point shooting had better be part of their routine practice sessions.


    Truly training to defend yourself involves more than just a gun, there are edged weapons, h2h skills and all of them are equally important. A multi-functional/discipline approach is a much better system. A gun is not the answer to every solution. Something as simple as timing the access to a weapon can be lethal. We constantly see people that are die in the wool gun people walk away with amazed looks that they could not access the gun or they have it taken away.

    If you have never taken or watched a SouthNarc Class he brings all of this to bear will startling reality.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
    FIREARMZ FORUM

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