Yet another store that I won't deal with!

This is a discussion on Yet another store that I won't deal with! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have been trying to talk to the owner of the ACE hardware store in Newton Falls, OH for quite some time. The store is ...

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Thread: Yet another store that I won't deal with!

  1. #1
    Array luvmy40's Avatar
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    Mar 2007
    Youngstown, OH

    Yet another store that I won't deal with!

    I have been trying to talk to the owner of the ACE hardware store in Newton Falls, OH for quite some time. The store is posted gun free. The owner never seemed to be around.
    I finally talked to him today.
    I can't believe that people this thick headed and stupid can actually function an day to day basis.
    I asked why he would deny honest law abiding citizens the opportunity to give him their money. His reply was "You can shop here, you just can't bring your gun."
    I then asked him if he thought that a criminal intent on robbing his establishment and assaulting his employees and customers would pay any attention to a sign that says he's not allowed to "bring his gun". To which he replied "What would you do do if someone came in here to rob the place while you are here with your gun?" I told him that "I would be the best possible witness that I could for the police and that, if directly threatened, would defend myself by what ever means necessary". He asked if that meant that I would shoot to kill. I said "If there is ever a need for me to shoot in defense of my life, then yes I would shoot to kill. "That's why you can't carry your gun in my store!"

    Am I being thick here or did he just tell me that he would rather see his employees and /or customers killed in a robbery than to have a criminal shot in his store?

    BTW He also told me that "Works for the PD" and knows "All about what it takes to get a CCW"
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  2. #2
    Member Array FLJohn's Avatar
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    Jun 2007
    Print this out and give to him to read! Can't remember where i saw this posted!

    There’s a lot of misinformation out there these days about people who have chosen to exercise their right to carry a concealed weapon according to the provisions made by state governments.

    Here are a few things that CWP holders want people to know about them. Now of course there are exceptions to these general rules but I think you’ll find these things to be true about the vast majority of your legally carrying neighbors.

    1. We don’t carry firearms so that we can ignore other basics of personal safety. Every permit holder that I know realizes that almost all dangerous situations can be avoided by vigilance, alertness and by simply making wise choices about where one goes and what one does. We don’t walk down dark alleys. We lock our cars. We don’t get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do. We park our cars in well lighted spots and don’t hang out in bad parts of town where we have no business. A gun is our last resort, not our first.

    2. We don’t think we are cops, spies, or superheros. We aren’t hoping that somebody tries to rob the convenience store while we are there so we can shoot a criminal. We don’t take it upon ourselves to get involved in situations that are better handled by a 911 call or by simply standing by and being a good witness. We don’t believe our guns give us any authority over our fellow citizens. We also aren't here to be your unpaid volunteer bodyguard. We'll be glad to tell you where we trained and point you to some good gun shops if you feel you want to take this kind of responsibility for your personal safety. Except for extrordinary circumstances your business is your business, don't expect us to help you out of situations you could have avoided.

    3. We are LESS likely, not more likely, to be involved in fights or “rage” incidents than the general public. We recognize, better than many unarmed citizens, that we are responsible for our actions. We take the responsibility of carrying a firearm very seriously. We know that loss of temper, getting into fights or angrily confronting someone after a traffic incident could easily escalate into a dangerous situation. We are more likely to go out of our way to avoid these situations. We don’t pull our guns to settle arguments or to attempt to threaten people into doing what we want.

    4. We are responsible gun owners. We secure our firearms so that children and other unauthorized people cannot access them. Most of us have invested in safes, cases and lock boxes as well as other secuity measures to keep our firearms secure. Many of us belong to various organizations that promote firearms safety and ownership.

    5. Guns are not unsafe or unpredictable. Modern firearms are well made precision instruments. Pieces do not simply break off causing them to fire. A hot day will not set them off. Most modern firearms will not discharge even if dropped. There is no reason to be afraid of a gun simply laying on a table or in a holster. It is not going to discharge on its own.

    6. We do not believe in the concept of “accidental discharges”. There are no accidental discharges only negligent discharges or intentional discharges. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun “going off” was the result of negligence on somebody’s part. Our recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.

    7. Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed. However, there are times with an observant fellow citizen may spot our firearm or the print of our firearm under our clothes. We are very cognizant that concerns about terrorism and crime are in the forefront of the minds of most citizens. We also realize that our society does much to condition our fellow citizens to have sometimes irrational fears about firearms. We would encourage citizens who do happen to spot someone carrying a firearm to use good judgment and clear thinking if they feel to need to take action. Please recognize that it’s very uncommon for a criminal to use a holster. However, if you feel the need to report having spotted a firearm we would ask that you please be specific and detailed in your call to the police or in your report to a store manager or private security. Please don’t generalize or sensationalize what you observed. Comments like “there’s a guy running around in the store with a gun” or even simply “I saw a man with a gun in the store” could possibly cause a misunderstanding as to the true nature of the incident.

    8. The fact that we carry a firearm to any given place does not mean that we believe that place to be inherently unsafe. If we believe a place to be unsafe, most of us would avoid that place all together if possible. However, we recognize that trouble could occur at any place and at any time. Criminals do not observe “gun free zones”. If trouble does come, we do not want the only armed persons to be perpetrators. Therefore, we don't usually make a determination about whether or not to carry at any given time based on "how safe" we think a location is.

    9. Concealed weapon permit holders are an asset to the public in times of trouble. The fact that most permit holders have the good judgment to stay out of situations better handled by a 911 call or by simply being a careful and vigilant witness does not mean that we would fail to act in situations where the use of deadly force is appropriate to save lives. Review of high profile public shooting incidents shows that when killers are confronted by armed resistance they tend to either break off the attack and flee or choose to end their own life. Lives are saved when resistance engages a violent criminal. Lives are lost when the criminal can do as he pleases.

    10. The fact that criminals know that some of the population may be armed at any given time helps to deter violence against all citizens. Permit holders don’t believe that every person should necessarily be armed. We recognize that some people may not be temperamentally suited to carry a firearm or simply may wish not to for personal reasons. However we do encourage you to respect our right to arm ourselves. Even if you choose not to carry a firearm yourself please oppose measures to limit the ability of law abiding citizens to be armed. As mentioned before: criminals do not observe “gun free zones”. Help by not supporting laws that require citizens to be unarmed victims.

  3. #3
    Member Array falkon's Avatar
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    Sep 2006
    North Carolina
    I think the signs are dumb too.

    Have a look at this thread.
    There are 10 types of people in the world:
    Those who understand binary, and those that don't.

  4. #4
    Member Array Wits-Z's Avatar
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    Jul 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by luvmy40 View Post
    Am I being thick here or did he just tell me that he would rather see his employees and /or customers killed in a robbery than to have a criminal shot in his store?

    No. I don't think that is what he was getting at.. I believe he is reacting to the sensationalizing by the media of the few bad apples who get into some type of altercation, don't behave rationally and end up using their firearm.. For example, there is the report about that ex-police officer who unloaded his clip after a dispute in a parking lot. There are countless situations where people wave their guns during road rage incidents and the like, get in stupid arguments which lead to gunfire.

    Obviously, these situations are incredibly rare in comparison with the lawful individuals carrying CCWs and behaving responsibly, but I've personally never seen any news program touting the responsible CCW owners.

    Just another example of the uninformed drinking the koolaide.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Mar 2007
    I think this guy is a lost cause anyway, but I'd not say that I would shoot to kill. The PC wording is :"I'd shoot to stop the immediate threat." Of course, if the scumbag dies as a result of threatening my life, thats his bad. The fact remains that we (I, anyways) am not concerned with taking or saving the BGs life once something is going down, I just want him to stop trying to hurt me. The best way to do that is to aim for certain places on his person and it happens to be a coincidence that these place are the same ones that are likely to be fatal.

    In any case, this guy is not interested in or capable of providing you a safe place to spend your money. Go somewhere else and have all your gun buddies do the letter thing, just keep them professional. Good Luck.
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  6. #6
    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmy40 View Post
    he would rather see his employees and /or customers killed in a robbery than to have a criminal shot in his store?
    Did you ask him that? Sometimes breaking it down to the simplest thing is all it takes to change someones mind.

    If you can get him on record saying that, he may be legally responsible for any harm that comes to anyone because of that decision.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer him—by force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

  7. #7
    Member Array Bashful's Avatar
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    Aug 2006
    I agree with LBrombach. "Shoot to Kill" is not in my vocabulary when talking about concealed carry. If I'm in fear of my life, I'll shoot until the threat stops (or until the threat falls out of my sight picture )

    However, regardless of what you may have told this guy, it sounds like he was a lost cause from the beginning. Spend your money somewhere else!!!
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Array DirtDawg's Avatar
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    May 2007
    He may just be "ignorant" of the facts-or scared of the BG suing him after he tries to kill someone and is stopped by a CCW holder.

    Why is it that you always find things at the last place you looked?
    Because when you find something-you stop looking-Mooch

  9. #9
    Member Array imatt's Avatar
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    Jan 2007
    His employees really need to see that transcript.

  10. #10
    New Member Array MAN WITH A GUN's Avatar
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    May 2007

    Too Dumb To Live

    I'll swear, you wonder how that man can breath and talk at the same time with such limited brain function.

    INSURANCE COMPANIES are feeding this crap to policy holders. I own a shopping center and my rates went UP because I did two things; put in a Wide Area Network for computer users and allowed CCW folks to carry. If they are LEGAL far be it for me to keep them out! Besides, I want someone defending the folks and property here.

    Our little county had ZERO crime when I moved here five years ago. We are 11/2 hours from Atlanta where he body count is huge each night.

    Thus far, we've had THREE BANK ROBBERIES here this year. They were armed, fired shots with auto weapons and were in and out in less than 5 minutes. I damned sure am not going to walk into one of these without my gun.

    Then, again, I've just always been a hippie at heart and feel the pain of the anti's but you can bet it would take one holdup with them in the middle to kiss the guy or gal who popped the BG and saved them.

    Something about the real world that brings it all into perspective.
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    No concealed carry means I don't shop there, even if not armed. There are far too many businesses that respect my rights and welcome my business for me to ever give a dime to a store run by and for idiots!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  12. #12
    Member Array imatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxned View Post
    No concealed carry means I don't shop there, even if not armed. There are far too many businesses that respect my rights and welcome my business for me to ever give a dime to a store run by and for idiots!
    That's quickly become my thinking as well. Lucky for me, in my area VERY few stores are posted. Those that are don't get my $.

    My wife is beginning to understand. We went into the mall the other day (not posted) and she was very uneasy about a group of people surrounding the exit door. I wasn't carrying that day (I cannot recall why), and she actually said she felt more comfortable when she knew I WAS carrying. This from someone who started out pretty anti-gun. She also is starting to notice which stores are posted and which ones are not, and points it out every time - once suggesting that we go elsewhere.

    You're not alone in ditching posted stores.

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Black Knight's Avatar
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    Jun 2006
    Charlottesville, VA
    Sounds like he believes it is better for the BG to rob his store and possibly kill an employee or a customer than for a GG to incapacitate the BG. He puts more value on the BG's life than he does anyone else. The idea is to stop the threat from continueing the action that caused you to shoot in the first place. If the BG dies that is an act of God. If you are with a local gunclub let them know. That happened here when Lowe's posted after the shall issue law passed. The sign came down in three months. They lost so much money from members and contractors (who were members) their normal intake was down about 2/3's.

  14. #14
    VIP Member
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    Incredible. Not anything to ad that hasn't already been said .
    I've talked to and sent a letter to American Financial for a no carry sign and they wont budge either.. Its just a fact, there will always be ignorant people..

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    May 2007
    You SHOOT TO ELIMINATE THE THREAT. You never shoot to kill. You eliminate the threat...

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