Real Bad Experience...
This is a discussion on Real Bad Experience... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sounds like you handled the situation pretty well.
Now that you have mailed your letters I would let it go, you've made your point. If ...
July 8th, 2007 12:17 PM
Sounds like you handled the situation pretty well.
Now that you have mailed your letters I would let it go, you've made your point. If you continue to proceed with "busting everybodies chops" regarding this issue it means you have way too much time on your hands. That is just my humble opinion and no offense meant.
I like the way you asked the "gentleman" if he was an LEO and requested ID. That was a very good move on your part. The only thing different would be to report him for Stalking as he followed you around the store, but it's too late now.
As far as the "Cowboy State" comment, I resemble that remark! I grew up a cowboy and live in a cowboy state. It sounds to me like either the officer was trying to express his personal opinion, and claiming it was law, "fishing" to see how you would respond or just plain "misinformed". You can take your pick among your most favorable three options.
Now that it's over, let it go and move on. You've done good.
July 8th, 2007 12:19 PM
Agreed 100% ^^
Originally Posted by crankshop1000
When in the wrong and you know or are told you are in the wrong, don't be that guy who barks and growls. Just apologize, thank him for alerting you personally, and move on. If the other guy gives you a little bit of lip or attitude don't take that as fuel to retort in kind. Simply smile, apologize once more with "I made an error by accident, I'm sorry" and just walk away leaving that guy to fume. For all you know his momma might have been shot down by some unknown with a gun and he has from that issues with and hatred for all gun owners. He could have been a LEO and might not have been. Probably was not, but it does not matter.
Not everyone is going to be a nice guy when ti comes to situations like this.
Also if this had been me I would have left the store immediately. Leave your buddy to finish up the shopping and I'd go back to my car and sit on a time out. Why would I do this? Two reasons.
First so that what happened to you secondarily with the cops being called & showing up would not happen. If they had chosen to arrest you then well you would be in a pickle over effectively nothing.
Second I'd leave to go sit and think on how I came to be in this situation, how I can prevent it in the future, and what lessons are to be learned and never forgotten.
As to the attitude of the police to you. Since when are police nice and courteous to citizens? They were called out for a call of a guy in the wrong, you. You were located and questioned which was completely sensible and correct. You were found to otherwise be lawful and squeaky clean with no warrants et. al. So what if the cop misquoted legality with you, it's not germane to the call of a customer being himself fearful of a guy who was in fact brandishing his otherwise legally carried sidearm in a store and then subsequently giving him attitude upon being advised he should correct himself. Yes the other guy and the police could have chosen to speak to you in a more diplomatic and courteous tone but the catalyst here was yourself not them.
I would not be even thinking about suing anybody about anything. I wouldn't have sent this e-mail either. I wouldn't even have gone to the PD to file any complaint or talk to anyone.
I would though go home, lick my wounds, think on what all happened to me just now, and vow a promise to myself of 'Never again'.
P.S. - Please don't sue me or write a letter to the mods toward my post if you feel my attitude is less than kind or respectful even as offense is not my intent.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
July 8th, 2007 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Janq
Tomayto, tomahto. There's being in the wrong, and there's being in the wrong.
... a customer being himself fearful of a guy who was in fact brandishing his otherwise legally carried sidearm in a store and then subsequently giving him attitude upon being advised he should correct himself.
One could assume that the OP had a clothing malfunction and thus deserves everything that can be heaped on him, legal or not. Such thinking would be partial.
IMO, assuming the story is true, the liar with claims of brandishing and overtly threating others was the catalyst. No amount of visibility of a portion of a holster or firearm justifies any sort of response like that, the lies notwithstanding. Add to that his unsubstantiated (if implied) claims of being an LEO, then a bit of refusal to swallow the guilt hook, line and sinker should be expected. While the original visibility of the firearm sparked the guy to action, his lies and deceipt was the catalyst for the outsized negative reactions by the legitimate officers.
In short: you have every right to be where you are. You have every right to carry. In a state that doesn't specifically disallow open carry, you have a right to carry in that manner. So far as I understand the basic Indiana statutes, open carry requires a license to carry. You do have a responsibility to be discreet, but the mere temporary, unintentional visibility of your gear by another does not magically make you a criminal nor craft you into a raving, violent, brandishing threat to society that the other claimed you'd become. Neither does your questioning the veracity of a complainant's statements, when he has been caught in overt lies. Neither does your request for his substantiation of claims (or impmlication) of being an LEO. Neither does your following through with acquiring copies of the documented evidence of this action against you, to ensure everyone is playing with the same deck of cards. Yes, on the action to ensure you weren't a criminal, move on. But on the false statements made by the idiot and the claims of illegality and misstatements by the responding LEO, you have every right to pursue it as you would any false claims made against you, should you choose to do so.
July 8th, 2007 01:16 PM
no, it's not understandable. it's their primary job, and needs to be at the forefront of their mind in every detail. it wouldn't be acceptable for a doctor to slap a brain in where a heart was supposed to go during a transplant. it wouldn't be acceptable for a phone technician to plug in the phone line to the 120AC electrical outlet.
Its gotta be a pretty tough part of a LEOs job to keep up with ALL the ins and outs of every law, but you think there might be a little extra attention paid to the CONSTITUTIONAL ones... But they're human to so its understandable.
it's imperative that these guys know the law if they are meant to enforce it. these LEO's should be both reprimanded and re-educated. the individual that made the call should be reprimanded as well, if not charged. i'm no lawyer, but there has to be some law against lying on a 911 call....maybe i'll ask a LEO :P.
i'm sorry that you had to go through that.
July 8th, 2007 01:24 PM
It is illegal, but good luck trying to prove at least one of the culpable states of crime. The caller just has to articulate his perception of the situation, there for it would be a grand waste of time and money to pursue this.
Originally Posted by phaed
July 8th, 2007 01:41 PM
Janq - I have to respectfully disagree. Obviously the Concealed versus open debate has been long drawn out on this forum in other threads in the past so I'm not going to start that one up (er uh at least try not too). The problem is that he was in fact in the right. If in fact Indiana does allow open carry, he shouldn't have to hide. Virginia is an open carry state, and much to the anti's chagrin, we have less and less of these type of incidents happening precisely because we DO fight back when we're in the right. We put the LEO's back in their place. That means not only knowing the law they're supposed to be working with, but also following it themselves. If we allow every tom dick and hairy to put themselves above the law, then we cease to be free to follow it as written ourselves.
As an aside, I have a question for you LEO's out there:
It seems to me that many of these types of issues are caused by both the average citizen ignorance and/or disrespect of the law(the pansies that call in the "Man with a gun" scares), and the LEO's ignorance of the law. I'll agree, it's quite absurd to expect every LEO to remember every single bit of law, but why not solve it? You guys have all kinds of nifty do-dads and gadgets available these days including in vehicle computers. Why not suggest to your bosses to suggest to their bosses (US, THE PEOPLE) to give you guys access to your state's legislative DB's so you can verify information on the spot when necessary?
-just a thought, no offense intended as we all have differing opinions.
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July 8th, 2007 01:43 PM
Well all I gotta say is "It's Indiana" some of the best laws, Some of the dumbest people, and further more Some of the most ignorant LEO's (AHHHHH sit down people i'm allowed to talk about my own, I'm a former LEO) All I can say is it sounds like you handled the situation quite well. I'm not sure how large Mishiwaka thats up North and i'm way down in the S.W. corner of the state. But if its a Small Town or City I wouldn't even bother with all the paperwork the small town I worked for half of the stuff sat on the Cheifs desk for a month or so and then found its way to the round filing cabinet when he did his "monthly cleaning " numerous cases, Bills and P.O. Reqesitions never did get paid until our accounts at places became mad and suspended our accounts just my 2cents worth
July 8th, 2007 01:47 PM
If you DO file a report about the LEO on scene, remember to write a letter to the Chief about Office Thomas.
We could use more LEO's like him.
July 8th, 2007 01:49 PM
Now Packin why would the P.D.s go and do something that would make that much sense. That would make too much sense and make their officers know too much and make their jobs entirely wayyy to easy. Dont ya know the Brass in the office are the only ones to know it all(thats why they make the big $$$$$). And the street jockeys are supposed to try to figure it out over the course of their career and stay confused as to whats going on and whats changing
July 8th, 2007 01:50 PM
Tyranny, incompetency or even honest mistakes get corrected not by hiding in the sand, but by actively seeking to correct it. Absolutely.
Originally Posted by packinnova
July 8th, 2007 01:50 PM
We do have such a critter, not every agency has it, but its out there. Its not really all that though, because most of the time we dont have time to go look up an oddball law during a situation. I wish it came equipt with time out button.
Originally Posted by packinnova
I really dont think this LEO was ignorant of the law. He was investigating a reported crime, which was brandishing or a man otherwise making a scene in the store, the call was not about open carry to begin with. Once the LEO's saw it for what it was, the OP was sent on his way without criminal charges. No arrest was made no citations issued. The cowboy comment was a flippant remark expressing an opinion, not law.
July 8th, 2007 01:55 PM
This thread makes me angry. What kind of person calls 911 and lies that blatantly about a firearm? He obviously didn't feel threatened by you or he wouldn't have confronted you about it.
I wouldn't "just do nothing" like some people have said. Your e-mail is justified and I may even follow up with a phone call to their police chief. The retarded anti you can't do much about, but you can have the LEO's re-educated, you know, with correct information regarding the law. That IS what they get paid for.
This thread has encouraged me to bring a copy of the CHP laws for VA with me in my car.
July 8th, 2007 02:24 PM
Without going into alot of words,I'll just say that I'm pretty well in line with ccw9mm's line of thinking in post #18.
Like Sixto, I have been the responding officer to such calls. Fact of the matter is, you never know what to expect on a call like that and must approach it with caution. When you determine what the truth is, you have to deal with the facts.
A few years ago I responded to a call at the local steakhouse with a call much like the one here. After the usual conversation with dispatch, once we figured out that the guy was good to go and simply made a mistake by allowing his shirt to ride up over his gun, we advised him to keep it covered and have a good day. He was somewhat embarrassed and quite apologetic. Since the complainant wanted to talk to the Police, I basically got to listen to her whine and complain about the evils of gun ownership and how it ought to be against the law. She was ticked that the guy was not arrested and wanted to know why. She was visitor from a different state and totally ignorant of the law.
And that is basically what I told in a nice,less than offensive way. I educated her so that if she another situation like the above presented itself, she wouldn't feel that the guy with gun was out to kill everybody. She understood that and I like to think that she learned something that day.
The cop in the noted situation could have communicated a bit more effectively, but fact of the matter is, many of them dont have the skills. A little common sense here could have avoided any misunderstanding but sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious till much later.
With that being siad...
Hire a lawyer. Scare the water of the guy that proved himself to be ignorant. File charges of filing a false report,harassment and intimidation and make him answer for it. Even if its dropped, the ignoramus will think twice before doing it again. You were legal in all activities, he was ignorant of the law and we all know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Hi use of certain words to make the cops respond in force was not only wrong but irresponsible.
Turn it into an educational opportunity to insure it never happens again. If you dont take the opportunity to educate when you can you may never have that opportunity again. In the mean time, Mr Complainant uses up precious resources on bogus complaints because he is ticked that people can legally carry and he is making a statement.
Burn his butt. Make him quiver. Change his attitude. If nothing else, he'll remember your face when he lays his head on his pillow at night.
hecks...the next step towards registration and confiscation.
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July 8th, 2007 02:28 PM
Good job staying calm.
Definetly file a FOIA or equivalent request in your state to get all the available details of the incident (911/611 audio; any video/audio available from the cruiser's dash cams/mics; all LEO commo traffic in audio/text format;etc). Then review the law/regs/policies/etc, to see if any were broken.
Contact a pro-firearms organization/attorney to see if they can help you in any way. Ask them what they think would be the best course of action - take mental notes of what they say, you could use the same strategy (in case they don't want to pursue the matter/charge $$$ to do it for you)
As a minimum I would file a complaint against the responding officer and against the person who started all this - the guy harassing you inside the store (that guy had the opportunity to call the police on you and the police had the opportunity to make smart assed comments about a cowboy state, etc; then you have the opportunity to formally voice your discontent with the situation). Just state your side as you see it and take it from there, if you don't like the outcome of it - appeal the decision until you have exhausted all venues.
Do drop a line to the Commanding Officer of the LEO that was understanding of your situation, let him know that you think he did a good job.
Drop a line to your elected officials, maybe you can enlist someones help.
If you do nothing, this scene will repeat itself again and again. The guy who called the cops on you will think he is the man. The cop who gave you a hard time will think he is the man also. Well, give them both some crap the legal way; lets see if they like dealing with the hassles of the legal process related to the complaints you file against them.
People's attitudes against us firearms owners won't change if we all stand there bowing our heads thinking we are the ones doing things wrong, gona piss people off, hurt the cause, thinking we must take all this non sense, etc.
Last edited by JD; July 8th, 2007 at 06:17 PM.
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July 8th, 2007 02:34 PM
Excactly. "Waste" of time and resources? Troublesome, perhaps, but hardly a waste. Why fight to protect what you have? Why fight to protect what's been taken from you? Why fight to protect against such things happening again? Because they will unless we put the fight.
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