Micro Compact vs Full Size: Throwing bricks vs rocks

This is a discussion on Micro Compact vs Full Size: Throwing bricks vs rocks within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm going to show this one more time.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk (click on "more" to expand for story details) It shows a clerk, putting three well placed ...

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Thread: Micro Compact vs Full Size: Throwing bricks vs rocks

  1. #1
    Member Array juking's Avatar
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    Micro Compact vs Full Size: Throwing bricks vs rocks

    I'm going to show this one more time..
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk
    (click on "more" to expand for story details)
    It shows a clerk, putting three well placed .40 caliber Speer 165 gr Gold Dots into the side of a fleeing robber, using a Glock 23 (wounding him).
    *edit* this was later revealed to actually be a Glock 27, using 165gr Goden Sabers..by the clerk himself..*



    *edit*..the following comments by me, were made BEFORE I became aware that the clerk was using the smaller Glock 27..which enforces my point..*

    In the clip, the clerk appears to draw his weapon from his right front pocket. This raises a few questions about concealability and comfort vs raw stopping power in this type of situation..although the Glock 23 is only 21 ounces (slightly heavier than the Glock 19, the overall dimensions of the gun seem to be on the large side (13-15 round mag), to be carrying around all night in your pocket (compared to say..a 3" 1911 .45 w/ 10 round double stack mag)..I wonder if the robber would have lived, if he was shot w/ a .45, using 230gr JHPs..any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated..thanks
    Last edited by juking; July 10th, 2007 at 01:15 PM. Reason: update
    semper fi

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  3. #2
    Member Array juking's Avatar
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    i found some useful info here: http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
    Last edited by juking; July 10th, 2007 at 09:39 AM. Reason: because i can
    semper fi

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Oh, Lordy. Bottom line: if the clerk had hit a fatal-zone, the BG would be dead. 9mm/.40/.45 are all basically equal, with comparable (good quality) loadings.

    If you get shot in the arse with a .40, you can still run away(seen it). If you get shot in the arse with a .45, you can still run away(seen it). If you get shot in the arse with a 9mm...you get the picture(seen it). If you get shot dead center with any of the above, at T7, you won't run. Period. (Did compressions on him)

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    Member Array juking's Avatar
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    ..9mm/.40/.45 are all basically equal, with comparable (good quality) loadings..
    I'll fire this off in an email to our troops in Iraq..however, I don't think this info will cause them to cancel their requests for .45's ('en masse)..
    Last edited by juking; July 10th, 2007 at 09:47 AM. Reason: b.s. control
    semper fi

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I'll fire this off in an email to our troops in Iraq..I don't think this info will change their requests for .45's ('en masse)..
    Apples and oranges , the troops are for the most part restricted to ball ammo . When you compare ball ammo to ball ammo I agree with the troops . In the real world of ccw I in fact mostly carry a 9mm with quality hp ammo .

    Edited to add I posted this vid quite a while back , along with a link to a forum thread where the shooter discussed just what happened . He seems to be a real level headed young man .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Member Array juking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Apples and oranges , the troops are for the most part restricted to ball ammo . When you compare ball ammo to ball ammo I agree with the troops . In the real world of ccw I in fact mostly carry a 9mm with quality hp ammo .

    Edited to add I posted this vid quite a while back , along with a link to a forum thread where the shooter discussed just what happened . He seems to be a real level headed young man .
    I couldn't find the post that you were refering to..I would've liked to have read the clerk's story..I am going to quote you on one of your posts, from a couple of months ago..

    REDNECK WROTE:

    "For myself i would take even a standard velocity .38 special hp over a .45 acp ball round , but i would shure take the .45 ball over a .38 or 9mm ball" .
    semper fi

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Juking I thought i linked to the other forum thread , Appairently i did not but here is my thread on it http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...&highlight=vid

    As to your quote , Yep , and its pretty much what i stated above also . When you compare ball ammo to ball ammo the .45 is head and shoulders above the competition IMHO . Modern hp ammo muddys the waters to the point caliber selection is more emotional than logical tho for most folks .

    Edited to add ill see if i can at least dig up the forum with the thread on it if not the thread its self for ya tho .

    re edited to add

    So far i have not found the original forum post , but here is one that quotes the shooter's post over on packing.org as well as my op here http://www.gunatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356


    Re...RE edited to add :

    I am pretty sure going thro bookmarks that this is the forum , but not the thread i found this on , this thread is a " project " idea lol , i dont believe i bookmarked the original thread http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showth...hreadid=174612
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Path rather than caliber

    Quote Originally Posted by juking View Post
    It shows a clerk, putting three well placed .40 caliber Speer 165 gr Gold Dots into the side of a fleeing robber, using a Glock 23 (wounding him).....I wonder if the robber would have lived, if he was shot w/ a .45, using 230gr JHPs..any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated..thanks
    I think that living or dying with three .40 hollowpoints going into your side depends mainly on the exact path of the bullets and what they struck within the body. If the bullets stayed outside the rib cage and missed any organs, major arteries or the spine, I could see the robber surviving the wounds, provided he had prompt medical care to stop the bleeding, repair the damage and prevent infection.

    If the bullets had penetrated the spine, heart or liver it is possible that the robber would have died before reaching the hospital. I think this could have happened with either .40 caliber or .45 caliber bullets.

    I believe the critical factors are the path of the bullet within the body, and how much it expanded and penetrated. I would guess that caliber is secondary when the two possibilities are .40 and .45 handgun bullets.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juking View Post
    I'll fire this off in an email to our troops in Iraq..however, I don't think this info will cause them to cancel their requests for .45's ('en masse)..
    Be sure to let the homies in Houston and Wichita know too, maybe they'll quit using ball, and punching inadequate holes.

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    Member Array juking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    He is 22 years old.
    He is an NRA instructor.
    Says he's put 10's of thousands of rounds downrange.
    He didn't produce or post the video. His roomate did.
    He was using a Glock 27 with 165 grain Golden Sabers.
    They overpenetrated twice and the third stuck in his shoulderbone.
    He's switching to 155 grain Gold Dots.
    He yelled at the guy and the Perp raised his gun. That is when he starts to duck-flinch and starts shooting.
    His co-worker wants to get her CCW now and he hopes to be the one to sign her off for it.
    He didn't get sued or prosecuted.
    Says the Police and prosecutor were pretty supportive.
    He says and i belive him the apparent nearness of the child is due to camera angle .
    Thanks, RR..This whole story is extremely interesting..Now that I am aware of the actual facts..ie..what type of weapon and ammo was used, including injuries..gives me much insight into what it's going to take to defend myself in this type of situation..I am truely a fan of the compact. btw..I'm not sure why he says that he is switching to a lighter bullet, if two out of the three over-penetrated..if they were bricks, they may have stayed in flesh..
    semper fi

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    Addition: Concerning "well placed" shots

    Juking:
    "It shows a clerk, putting three well placed .40 caliber Speer 165 gr Gold Dots into the side of a fleeing robber, using a Glock 23 (wounding him)."

    The shots were "well placed" only with regard to the fact that they were not errant or stray shots and all three were hits on the body.

    They were still (obviously) non fatal or killing shots and it would only be speculation as to if one (or more) of the shots would have been a killing or more incapacitating shot in any other bullet caliber.
    You would need to know the exact bullet paths and direction into the body and then try to make a logical determination as to if factors such as increased penetration to the heart or vital organs would have resulted in a kill.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    well folks i am almost sure the forum i linked is the same forum i got the inital info off of , so do a bit of searching ( i never signed up for the forum because i did not like the software used and presentation ) and i am sure you can find the original thread .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Member Array turbo93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Oh, Lordy. Bottom line: if the clerk had hit a fatal-zone, the BG would be dead. 9mm/.40/.45 are all basically equal, with comparable (good quality) loadings.

    If you get shot in the arse with a .40, you can still run away(seen it). If you get shot in the arse with a .45, you can still run away(seen it). If you get shot in the arse with a 9mm...you get the picture(seen it). If you get shot dead center with any of the above, at T7, you won't run. Period. (Did compressions on him)
    thank you rob once again we are singing from the same sheet of music. Juke notice that this is not empiric data but type 1 ie first hand. I will second that as a surgeon. A .22 in the heart or brain will kill a .45 in the leg will not. Stopping power is a myth. A larger caliber with a reasonable amount of power behind it will give you better penetration and make it more likely to get into the visceral area of the body especially if it has to go through a barrier. It still has to be aimed and placed into a neural structure or large blood vessel.
    There is nothing magic about the 45 though and the number one criteria is placement. In our over litigious society over penetration could lead to lawsuits and that is the most important reason to use one number two reason is to deliver the maximum energy to the visceral area

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    Member Array mikeb's Avatar
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    to reply directly to the OP

    i have a glock 27 like the one used in this situation. its actually right beside me all of the time. it holds 10 rounds of .40 and is easily concealable. this person very effectively used his gun to do good things. how would it have been better if he had a 1911. why are 1911 people always saying that everyone else would always be better off with a 1911 than whatever they had.

    what he had worked, i guess i can understand if he made a thread "well i sure wish i had .45 instead of .40 when that happened" and someone recommended that subcompact glock in a doublestack .45 and someone else recommended a 1911 in a .45 subcompact. that would be a good use of the internet.

    im tired of people telling me to carry a 1911, especially when there evidence is probably the best evidence on record that something else worked perfectly.

    im tired of it.. anyone else?

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    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Now now Mikeb, be calm. Your going to incite a riot from the 1911 cultist.

    I have to agree with turbo and rob72. The clerk did just fine.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

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