Why do we as a whole choose to conceal like its a bad thing? - Page 5

Why do we as a whole choose to conceal like its a bad thing?

This is a discussion on Why do we as a whole choose to conceal like its a bad thing? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Rob72 ...Problem is, lots of people with permits are "nail-and-hammer", or "amulet" people. They have no skills or defensive line other than ...

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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    ...Problem is, lots of people with permits are "nail-and-hammer", or "amulet" people. They have no skills or defensive line other than the firearm, or they really haven't considered that they might actually have to use the weapon, so...
    Could be they are also physically unable to engage in HTH with a BG. Could be they can't carry a batman like tool belt of alternative levels of force for whatever reason. I know several of folks like this that have taken my classes. I was one after my hernia surgery. I would have been hard pressed to engage in HtH with someone. Actually I was very hard pressed to carry for awhile given my primary carry setup involves a belt and holster. Also, because they are typically handicapped, they will be targeted no matter how good their street skills are.

    At any rate in class we cover attitude on the street. A lot of people don't realize it, but hopefully we change their thinking just a bit.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I conceal carry for the same reason i carry my cash in my wallet instead of sticking out of my shirt pocket . What i have is no ones dammed business.
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  3. #63
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    I got into this thread rather late and admit I haven't read all the other posts first...

    However, I will say this:

    1) In a lot of states, the only way allowed by law is to carry "concealed" with a ccw permit! Not much else you can say about that. It's the LAW!

    2) In some states where "open carry" is technically legal, it has become so socially unacceptable that most of the towns and cities in a lot of "those" states have laws and ordinances that allow them you cite you and charge you with various other offenses such as "creating a disturbance" or "inciting terror to the public at large" or similar other worded local ordinances.

    3) It is clearly a "tactical advantage!" We as lawful citizens are obligated to "respond" to a threat rather than initiate the threat. I do my best not to look like a victim and would rather the thugs and BG's to go elsewhere... But if they choose you as a target, they are doing so because they feel they can prey, over power, and force you to submit. Thus my gun is my "ace in the hole" allowing me the element of suprise. If everyone open carried, there would still be thugs, bottom feeders, and killers who would just ambush you and shoot you outright, and then steal your money. Carrying concealed give you the advantage in that the thugs believe you to be unarmed when they attack you.

    4) Have you looked around lately? There are a hell of a lot of totally whacked out anti-gun zealots and crazies who would harrass and harang you to no end, up to and including becoming outwardly violent towards you. Firebomb your house... Snipe you from a distance, similar to the way the anti-abortion zealots have done to physicians and clinics in the not so distant past and the eco-terrorists.

    I hope this answers your questions.
    -Bark'n
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  4. #64
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    I don't have my CCW permit yet. That being said, I am under 21. I cannot legally carry a concealed weapon AT ALL. So I've been open carrying my fixed blade knife in a sheeth(sp) and a folder in each front pocket. I've only caught negative attention ONCE in the movie theatre,a LEO politely grabbed my arm and just asked me to put it in my car. I said no problem,and walked out there. He said 'thanks' on my way back in. I do get alot of annoying "dont stab me,huhuh" from people,and "holy s---- that guys packing some heat" and etc.

    I don't think I'd open carry my CZ after my expereinces with my knife.Unfortunately for some places I -have- to be open carrying to be within the law.My manager used to open carry to his fav. bar b/c thats the law,and they finally asked him to stop coming or leave his gun in the car.


    "To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.

  5. #65
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    I going back and reading some of others posts... People have been questioning others "fear" of being harrassed by other citizens or LEO.

    I would like to point out, in many cases, it's not an abstract fear of being harassed, but in fact are "real" consequences.

    While states that have open carry, in many area's of those "open carry" states, you will most certainly be arrested and charged with a crime, in violation of some other "peace disturbance" type ordinance or law. Plain and simple.

    So it's not just a matter of being "too timid" to handle the heat of people harassing and making fun of you, it's a matter of being charged and convicted of actual crimes.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobernet View Post
    Re: Concealed Carry "tactical advantage"

    One reason that I don't buy this line of argument from many is that whatever you feel about concealment... I think that every single person here would agree that having *a* gun is always better than having *no* gun.
    I agree with this. And keeping my gun concealed helps me keep my gun - it prevents grab attempts and doesn't ID me as target numero uno.
    Many states had open carry laws (or lack of restrictions) long before Florida passed shall-issue CCW and long before other states followed. Most of us were alive then and many were over the legal age to own a handgun. Yet, how many carried?
    I was 16 (and living in FL) when FL became "shall issue." I got my (Washington State) permit as soon as I turned 21, and have been carrying since then.

    Unless you were carrying illegally (which I acknowledge some did), you chose to go unarmed rather than open carry for fear of police or citizen harassment.
    I carried concealed then for the same reasons I do now. I didn't - and don't - fear the police or the citizenry in general - just the BGs.

    That tells me the whole "tactical advantage" argument is a cover for "even if I couldn't have my CCW any more, I'd still not open carry because I'm afraid of what other people would think/say/do to me."
    As I've said, I can open carry anywhere in the US - all I have to do is pin my shiny little badge in front of my weapon, and I don't have to worry about ANY harrassment, period. But I still carry concealed. What am I "covering" for?

    Most people here didn't carry before they got their permission slip, and if some day the government takes away their permission slip, most will go back to not carrying.
    That's because most of us aren't criminals. What's your point here?

    By the way...*I* am in that "most people" who didn't carry when I could have. I'm not on a holier-than-thou high horse here. I just really wish people would be honest with themselves about their motives, and how far the public perception of law enforcement has changed.
    I understand what you're saying, but I don't think you understand what us "tactical" concealers are saying. There are very real, very legitimate reasons to conceal your weapon even if you aren't legally required to. Yes, some people (more then I thought, actually) either fear or have been the victim of harassment, but that is only one of many reasons that lead people to carry concealed.

    They are no longer our "servants" they are our "masters."
    Hey, great! In that case, get over here and do my laundry!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #67
    Member Array bobernet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bobernet
    Most people here didn't carry before they got their permission slip, and if some day the government takes away their permission slip, most will go back to not carrying.
    That's because most of us aren't criminals. What's your point here?
    My point is that for many/most if the "legal" choices are:
    1) Open carry
    2) No carry

    ...they will choose 2.

    Estimates are that there are over 4 million CCW holders in the US. Let's say only half of those live in states where open carry is legal. How many of those 2 million were carrying before they received a CCW?

    It's not about people who have a legitimate preference for concealed carry, it's about people who *only* carry because they have a permission slip and are able to hide it.

  8. #68
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    No problem with open carry in MN other than you will scare the sheep and probably have a cop bothering you from time to time. Just because it is legal does not mean it is widely accepted. I carry concealed as I think for the most part it is tactically better to do but also could care less if it is exposed accidentally.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobernet View Post
    My point is that for many/most if the "legal" choices are:
    1) Open carry
    2) No carry

    ...they will choose 2.

    Estimates are that there are over 4 million CCW holders in the US. Let's say only half of those live in states where open carry is legal. How many of those 2 million were carrying before they received a CCW?

    It's not about people who have a legitimate preference for concealed carry, it's about people who *only* carry because they have a permission slip and are able to hide it.
    OK, I didn't infer the "if it were otherwise legal to open carry" part of that. To answer - if my only choice was to open carry, then open carry it would be. I'd change my holster style, certainly, but I'd still carry. I think (hope) many of us would.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #70
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    Exclamation Hold on thar!

    Quote Originally Posted by bobernet View Post
    Re: Concealed Carry "tactical advantage"

    One reason that I don't buy this line of argument from many is that whatever you feel about concealment... I think that every single person here would agree that having *a* gun is always better than having *no* gun. Unless you were carrying illegally (which I acknowledge some did), you chose to go unarmed rather than open carry for fear of police or citizen harassment.

    That tells me the whole "tactical advantage" argument is a cover for "even if I couldn't have my CCW any more, I'd still not open carry because I'm afraid of what other people would think/say/do to me."

    Most people here didn't carry before they got their permission slip, and if some day the government takes away their permission slip, most will go back to not carrying.

    I just really wish people would be honest with themselves about their motives, and how far the public perception of law enforcement has changed.

    They are no longer our "servants" they are our "masters."


    Wait a minute. You're changing the paradigm here. Florida is not OC and never has been. If it were and my right to CCW was taken away by legislative action I would instantly go for OC. There is no question. But I would not CCW where it is illegal. That's the reason I refuse to go to any of the various state dictatorships, like JOISY or California. If it were legal for me to OC without a permit in a state I was visiting I would OC there too, if my FL CCW had no reciprocity. Does anybody know of a state like this besides Vermont or Alaska? I know Alaska has ccw reciprocity, I'm speaking solely of OC.

    There are a lot of law enforcement officers on this forum. I'm a former one myself. It's kind of unfair to charactize them in such a way, yet you pose a valid point. I'd say is a current bureaucratic mindset that drives the entire criminal justice and judicial infrastructure. The cops are the folks who most interact with the populace and they are the ones introducing the subtle changes taking place now and I mean RIGHT now.

    I have to divide cops into two categories: The Old Guard who valued the Constitution and Bill of Rights and really do see themselves as the thin blue line between us and the jungle. These are the valiant warriors, the original sheepdogs who are retiring as fast as they can because the youngsters replacing them truly disgust these Blue Knights.

    Then there are the New Centurions. These are the youngsters who maybe started in the police about 15 years ago and currently continue to stream into the profession with skewed values. They tend to be badge heavy and literally gun shy. They're in it for the power and possibly the perks and a good chance to advance if they so desire. Cops have an awesome retirement package, at least in the Florida sytem.

    It's really NOT their fault. They simply listened to the elitist NWO crap spewed in every public and durn near every private school in the country. They're not introduced to the Bill of Rights as it was meant in the original sense and the 2nd Amendment is ALWAYS shown as applying only to the "National Guard." Tell me folks: If you've never been taught the sacred importance of a RIGHT or a VALUE will you shed your own blood in it's defense, as the Founding Fathers did for the creation of the nation?

    Bobernet if you want to really go screeching UP the flag pole read this book and get it today: The Late Great USA by Jerome R. Corsi, Phd. It will show you definitively how our country and our national identity has been sacrificed by the current administration on the (literal) horns of the NWO. It's no longer "theory" it's an ongoing operation and quite possibly unstoppable. It reads fast and about a third of the book is Bibliography and notes. This isn't wild conjurings of a madman.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I for one carry concealed not because I think it's a bad thing to carry in general and I want to hide the fact that I do, but because CC offers tactical advantages that open carry does not. (For what it's worth, as a federal LEO I could open carry wherever I felt like it...)

    1) Surprise. Gone over enough to warrant no further discussion here, I think.

    2) Retention. I carry in an open-topped holster with no retention devices other than the friction/pressure of the design. My greatest retention feature is the fact that no one knows I have a gun. Otherwise, I would be very uncomfortable moving through crowds, et cetera, knowing that I am a quick grab away from being disarmed (and arming a BG).

    So - I have no dog in the ideological open/concealed carry fight, but I don't open carry. As always, YMMV.
    Bingo; when I start carrying concealed (half a year seems so long...), it won't be for fear or shame, but for the tactical benefits. I'd rather keep the BG guessing than give him or her any mental security or risk him/her targetting me for my weapon (as ExSoldier mentioned).

    Edit to Add: Ghettokracker71, not sure about VA's laws, but down here a pocket knife is not considered a weapon until used as a weapon. My knife is pretty blatantly displayed solely because it is a utility knife, not a defensive knife, and I find it pretty enjoyable when people around me become more accustomed to "kid with a knife" and even begin counting on me to have it for when they need it or start carrying one themselves.

    By that token, if I lived in a less populated area, I'd be more inclined to open carry if law permitted for the same reason; acclimate people to open presence of firearms, and maybe indirectly convince them to begin taking the responsibility to carry on their own. However, the Tampa area is not so pleasantly unpopulated and prudence dictates even more strongly than law that concealed carry is the best route for me.


    -B

  12. #72
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    I live in a state where open carry is legal and, with a permit, so is concealed carry. I carry concealed, not because I am afraid to carry openly, but because it's an open invitation to be hassled. Will I go to jail for it? No, it's not likely. But I would be questioned sometimes by the police. And, I will get a lot of attention from many of the people (call them sheep, if you like). Will they confront me or attack me? Probably not, but I would prefer to not get the attention. I've stopped to get gas in my truck while on the way to the range (I always carry open when going to the range) and have had no problems other than looks. I prefer to carry concealed because I would rather not even have an extended glance.

    Everyone that carries openly and is willing to put up with the attention and occasional hassles, my hat is off to you. For those that carry concealed to retain tactical advantage and encourage people's attention to be directed elsewhere, I can appreciate that as well. It's all really just a preference and I encourage eveyone to do what's right for them, even if it happens to be not carrying at all.....
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier
    Wait a minute. You're changing the paradigm here. Florida is not OC and never has been.
    I only used Florida because of the dates. I believe it was the first state to go "shall issue."

    If it were and my right to CCW was taken away by legislative action I would instantly go for OC.
    As would I. But many here, I believe would not. Look at the threads where people are traveling to Colorado or Nevada or wherever and decide just to not carry because their CCW isn't recognized.

    If it were legal for me to OC without a permit in a state I was visiting I would OC there too, if my FL CCW had no reciprocity.
    Bravo! I agree wholeheartedly.

    Does anybody know of a state like this besides Vermont or Alaska? I know Alaska has ccw reciprocity, I'm speaking solely of OC.
    Nevada. At least until 10/1 this year, we have no reciprocity, but open carry is legal.

    There are a lot of law enforcement officers on this forum. I'm a former one myself. It's kind of unfair to charactize[sic] them in such a way, yet you pose a valid point.
    I fully realize that there are honest, dedicated men and women in law enforcement who truly support the Constitution and see themselves as servants of the people, not "authority" to "rule over" the people. Sadly, those people seem to be getting fewer and more far in between. Generalizations will always fail in some way, but looking at the nation as a whole, I don't think it's an unreasonable generalization.

    It's really NOT their fault. They simply listened to the elitist NWO crap spewed in every public and durn near every private school in the country.
    I think I disagree with you here. Obviously formation has something to do with people's worldview and preconceived ideas, but we are all capable of independent research and independent thinking. Just because a person was abused as a child, for example, doesn't excuse them of being a mass murderer.

    Bobernet if you want to really go screeching UP the flag pole read this book and get it today: The Late Great USA by Jerome R. Corsi, Phd. It will show you definitively how our country and our national identity has been sacrificed by the current administration on the (literal) horns of the NWO.
    I'll have to check it out.

    Best,
    Bob

  14. #74
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    Mostly concealed, but not always

    Here in Utah, the Concealed Firearms Permit (CFP) does two things for the holder: 1) It makes concealed carry legal, and 2) It makes open carry of a loaded firearm legal. (That also means that if my concealment inadvertently shows a flash of handgun, I'm still totally legal.)

    Most of the time, my handgun is concealed, for all the good reasons noted by others. But if you've been looking at the weather maps, you'll note the temperature here has ben climbing into the high 90's and 100's. (It's dry heat for the most part--this is desert country--so it's not like the 90's and 100's would be in, say, Virginia.) It's been uncomfortable to have any cover other than a VERY light shirt. So I've open carried a few times lately, like to the store, and so far no hassles.
    "None who have always been free can understand
    the terrible fascinating power of the hope of freedom
    to those who are not free."

  15. #75
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    Actually Indiana was the first "shall issue" state in 1980. Florida was the most populous state to pass such legislation in 1987 and the NRA got involved in this one giving it more attention.

    In Virginia a fixed blade knife of any length concealed is illegal and must be carried openly. Also so far as I know OC is the law in VA whether you are a resident or not. VA also happens to have a shall issue permit system for concealed carry and pretty good reciprocity if you prefer CC.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

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