Civil Disobedience?

Civil Disobedience?

This is a discussion on Civil Disobedience? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Thoreau (wiki) ..people should not permit governments to overrule or atrophy their consciences, and that people have a duty to avoid allowing ...

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Thread: Civil Disobedience?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    Civil Disobedience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau (wiki)
    ..people should not permit governments to overrule or atrophy their consciences, and that people have a duty to avoid allowing such acquiescence to enable the government to make them the agents of injustice.
    Let me preface my post by making it clear that I am not promoting the breaking of any laws. The purpose is merely to insight discussion and debate.

    The more I carry the more I realize how frequently I visit establishments/places that forbid firearms or the concealed carry of firearms. For instance: I went down to richmond to visit my gf and some friends and we went out to a couple of parks and then decided to go to a brewery/bar. (I wasn't drinking but my friends wanted to go, and I didn't want to spoil it for them. If I asked them to go somewhere else they would have but I feel like a tool doing that all of the time). I was forced to leave my gun in my friends glove box.

    So, I frequently enjoy places where it is illegal to cc..namely restaurants that happen to serve alcohol. I don't drink much (read: once every 2 months) so I never really thought about how frequently I visit these places, but it makes it really annoying. I have to disarm and/or figure out what to do with my firearm or plan my entire day/life around my gun. It makes it hard to have a good time and be spontaneous with my gf and friends. Some other places that I visit/travelthrough/ect regularly are: D.C., military installations, the D.C. metro, and I am frequently in places where I could take a wrong turn and be in Maryland/DC where its illegal to carry a firearm.

    This is really frustrating to me as I would like to obey the laws of my state and the country; however, I feel that my rights are being restricted and tampered with by irresponsible legislation created by politicians who believe that imaginary lines of "good faith" will protect me. The legislation that implements these imaginary lines also turns me into a criminal as soon as I cross them with my legally acquired handgun/permit.

    This is a tough decision for me and I haven't decided what I wanted to do, but I thought I would ask here.

    How do you gentlemen (and ladies) feel about this sort of civil disobedience?
    Last edited by Bumper; July 21st, 2007 at 01:45 AM. Reason: Removed portion that is contrary to forum rules.


  2. #2
    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    Can't you OC in a reastaurant that servers alcohol in VA?
    They call it the VA tuck or something.

    You have the right to OC there, but you are not using it. I understand how you feel about the erosion of your rights, but you are not exercising them to the fullest at the same time you are complaining about them.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer him—by force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

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    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protect View Post
    Can't you OC in a reastaurant that servers alcohol in VA?
    They call it the VA tuck or something.
    Yes you can but I pocket carry with my 642. I would have to have another holster in order to eat. I also don't want to draw attention to the fact that I am carrying...my close friends know but I don't care to inform some of them.

    Thats another reason that it really bothers me about the laws regarding this--I can open carry but can't cc?

    You are probably not 21 like me, but maybe you can realize how differently you get treated by older adults. Regardless of how maturely/responsibly you act...

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    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    I'm 31, and I do know what you mean about being treated differently as being younger. I know not every younger person is irresponsible, but I see a lot of older people that think anyone younger than them is irresponsible.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer him—by force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

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    I hear you and it sure is a PITA but, if you're permitted to carry OPEN in those places you want to visit where you cannot legally carry concealed then buy an easy on/easy off type of holster...keep that in the car and simply holster your pocket carry and carry it open.
    That's the only quick temporary fix if you do not want to leave your firearm in the car.

    Either that or carry your 642 holstered OWB with a cover garment and remove the cover garment to carry open when necessary.

  6. #6
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by kavity View Post
    Let me preface my post by making it clear that I am not promoting the breaking of any laws. The purpose is merely to insight discussion and debate.


    This is really frustrating to me as I would like to obey the laws of my state and the country; however, I feel that my rights are being restricted and tampered with by irresponsible legislation created by politicians who believe that imaginary lines of "good faith" will protect me. The legislation that implements these imaginary lines also turns me into a criminal as soon as I cross them with my legally acquired handgun/permit.

    This is a tough decision for me and I haven't decided what I wanted to do, but I thought I would ask here.

    How do you gentlemen (and ladies) feel about this sort of civil disobedience?


    While the laws may be BS, it's still the law, if it bothers you that much...don't go in. While the laws may make you a criminal if you mis-step, it is the individual who is ultimately responsible.

    I travel to VA quite often, and while it pained me to do so before VA and PA had reciprocity, I traveled unarmed. Now that VA and PA do have reciprocity, I can at least be armed most of the trip. And while in an establishment where alcoholic beverages are served I either open carry or leave it in the car.

    Whether or not plan you plan on promoting breaking the law, discussion of illegal activity is not allowed per forum rules.

    9. Discussion of illegal activities (for the purpose of promoting these activities) are not allowed whether they pertain to on or off topic subjects. Anyone in this category will be banned immediately. Banned posters may, under certain circumstances have their posts removed. If you quote or reference these posts in your own, they may also be removed.
    How do you gentlemen (and ladies) feel about this sort of civil disobedience?
    This type of civil disobedience is illegal and will not be discussed on this forum.


    14 VAC 5-30-10 to 5-30-400 (Law. Coop. 1996).
    21995 Op. Va. Att’y Gen. 118, 119 (concluding that person who possesses concealed weapons permit is still prohibited from carrying concealed handgun into business that serves alcoholic beverages on premises).
    See http://www.vaag.com/OPINIONS/2001opns/01-080.pdf for VA legality where the above quote is taken from.

    **Edited to add: However, if your caught CCing in such an establishment, IIRC all they can do is ask you to leave, and/or charge you with trespassing, which is only a misdemeanor.

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    I, too, understand your frustration, but you agreed to the terms of your permit and you need to follow the law, like it or not. If you don't, you're asking for trouble and will wind up being a statistic that the anti-gun crowd will use against us. Most of us try to convince people that oppose concealed carry that permit holders are law abiding and responsible. But, quite frankly, when someone with a permit breaks the law, we all look bad and our ability to make these points are thrown right out the window.

    This is not an area you should practice civil disobedience and I would strongly urge you not break the law. And, as JD stated in the above post, admitting to an illegal act is against our rules and should not be discussed on this forum. As long as this is kept hypothetical, we'll let it run, but if it goes wild, it's going to go away.


    Quote Originally Posted by kavity View Post
    You are probably not 21 like me, but maybe you can realize how differently you get treated by older adults. Regardless of how maturely/responsibly you act...
    Responsibility, when demonstrated by young people, would probably change the way older adults treat you and other young people. Making the right decision regarding following the law will set you apart from those that don't follow the law. Civil disobedience and breaking the law will only prove to them that their attitudes are correct....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

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    kavity,

    While I understand you question all I can constructivly say, the owner of this site has already said!

    The basic question framed in your scenario leaves only one possible answer... obey the law at all times!

    Next thread please!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
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    superior skills."

  9. #9
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    JMHO.... "Guns" and the words "Civil Disobedience" does not belong in the same sentence. Bad juju! You're beggin for trouble.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
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    My work, printer repair, requires me having to disarm several times some days when going to schools, police stations etc.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array SubNine's Avatar
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    I'm 22 years old, and when I go into some gun shops, I'm either ignored or I have to stand there for a good 10-15 minutes before someone finally breaks down and helps me. (Sorry to throw the thread a bit off topic.) Concealed carry here is legal in restaraunts that serve alcohol if the person carrying does not consume alcoholic beverages (which is great), but it is NOT legal to carry into bars. I rarely ever drink because 99% of the time I'm awake, I am also armed. When my friends decide they're going to drink and be spontaneous, I usually go home, but there are times I do want to join them, so I go through the trouble of taking my gun home and locking it up, and I don't come home until the next day when I'm sober again.
    USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

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    My desired reply to this thread would probably put me afoul of the forum's posting rules, so I will demur.

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    the 2nd amendment is pretty clear. it basically says that no one can make any other laws concerning firearms. so, all those laws are illegitimate.

    unfortunately, we are human. we are given to misinterpretation, bias, emotion, and lack of logic at times. even further, we as a society have turned over so much of our personal liberties to others because we are simply too lazy to be responsible for them. those sum up the real problem.

    you can argue that your "civil disobedience" is ethically, and even logically sound. however, there are those that's we've given power to that would disagree and punish you for defying them. that's the real issue. are your principles important enough to you to risk? only you can decide that.

    p.s. we as a society, have the power to change that, and take the power back. a good step is to vote for Ron Paul in '08 imo.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    the 2nd amendment is pretty clear. it basically says that no one can make any other laws concerning firearms. so, all those laws are illegitimate.
    No, it does not say that at all. The 1st Amendment specifically states that "Congress shall make no law..." The Second Amendment is quite clear that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That is obviously not the same as "Congress shall make no law.."

    Restrictions are not the same thing as infringement. Do you think felons should be able keep and bear arms? Do you think the mentally disturbed should not have their rights restricted?

    Just as you cannot slander someone, you can not wave a firearm around in public. Restrictions are not necessarily infringement.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Obey the law. Do not go where carrying is illegal, or leave the gun in the car or home.
    Jerry

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