The Mall - Page 4

The Mall

This is a discussion on The Mall within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Nothing wrong with being prepared and carring extra ammo, what ever makes you feel more capable of protecting you and your family....

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Thread: The Mall

  1. #46
    Member Array Detroittwister's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with being prepared and carring extra ammo, what ever makes you feel more capable of protecting you and your family.
    ** NRA Life Member***

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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vashooter View Post
    I wonder if it would be a negative factor against you in a jury's eyes if you were actually involved in a self defense shooting, shot someone, and were processed at the scene with 2 pistols and 4 mags on you?
    I think it would be an easy way for a prosecuter to point to you and call you a "survivalist extremist" and that you go out "looking for a fight". Not saying that they would be right - just that it might look kinda bad in a jury's eyes - and don't give me that "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" line. You have to weigh all the probabilities and make a realistic, sensible choice as to what and how much you carry.
    Good God! Practice the Jeet Kun Do then.

    If the shoot is good, the shoot is good. If your local DA has wood for CCers, nothing you do/have/say will make things better- or worse. Unless you jump up and down, shouting, "Whoopiee! I smoked him....!"
    Mall victim held fire at ‘kid’

    ‘I would have had to shoot him in the head,’ man says from hospital bed
    (Yep, and you'd be walking and healthy. If prosecuted or sued, you might lose your house, job, etc., but those are replaceable.)

    Reliving the Tacoma Mall shooting, Brendan “Dan” McKown feels intense pain in his legs and requests more medication Monday at Tacoma General Hospital.

    Brendan “Dan” McKown said Monday that he briefly drew his gun on Tacoma Mall shooting suspect Dominick S. Maldonado, but he’s not sure Maldonado saw it.

    He could have shot Maldonado, McKown said, but hesitated.

    From his bed in Tacoma General Hospital, McKown told The News Tribune what he saw and did during the Nov. 20 mall shootings.

    McKown, 38, said he carried a gun and even trained for situations where he could keep innocent people from getting hurt.

    But the situation in the mall was just too surreal to fully comprehend, he said: A young man wearing a baseball cap turned backward strolling through the mall in white tennis shoes.
    Reality is hard and unforgiving. Real action is never safe, and always has consequences- this applies to trauma care, LE, or valid use of your CCP. If one works in IT or sales, perhaps one needs to consider the "validity" and "consequences" of being armed.

    Perhaps there is that much difference, in those who put livlihood, if not life, on the line daily, and have no seperate "duty" and "personal" personas.

  3. #48
    Member Array vashooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
    There are many areas of the country where a long gun is carried in the truck. Not unusual at all.
    Like I said - I can see (and have done so myself)- packing a rifle along if you're going into a remote wilderness area or are on your farm where you may run into a varmit/predator, etc. and that is fine. But since we're on a personal defense forum mainly dedicated to personal defense from 2 legged predators - I guess I assumed that you were implying that "if I'm going into certain areas, the rifle goes in the back of the van." was referring to protection from human scum in those "certain areas".
    If you keep a rifle in the rack in the truck usually for chance encounters with wildlife and it's appropriate, fine. But if you're deliberately loading up a rifle to possibly deal with criminals because of the areas you're frequenting... then I stick to my guns (sorry-pun intended ) -you're going into some seriously bad areas (like Baghdad bad) that you shouldn't be going into.
    I own assault rifles myself, so I'm not saying rifles don't have their place in self defense, but I keep mine (other than for fun plinking) around for a seriously horrible scenario like Hurricane Katrina civil unrest. I live relatively close to Washington, DC so there is a very real chance in today's world that the region could be struck with serious civil unrest with large urban population displacement in the event of a major terrorist attack (nuke in DC for example). But speaking of DC, I go into some of the worst areas of DC every now and again and wouldn't ever consider packing along my M4gery or my AK (of course in DC it's illegal to have handguns or rifles so it's a moot point, but insert any other major city into that and it would be the same). I guess I'm just not one of those guys who drives around with a rifle and a "bug out bag" in their trunk in case there's a "TEOTWAWKI" situation. I just weigh the risks and deal with more likely scenarios - and those likely scenarios are dealt with a concealed handgun. Heck- if you were to drive around the bad "certain areas" of DC (or Philly or Baltimore where it's legal) with an AR-15 in the car, the likely scenario would be that sooner or later your car would be stolen/broken into and that rifle would be in the hands of a criminal.

  4. #49
    Member Array vashooter's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Rob72;436484]Good God! Practice the Jeet Kun Do then.

    If the shoot is good, the shoot is good. If your local DA has wood for CCers, nothing you do/have/say will make things better- or worse. Unless you jump up and down, shouting, "Whoopiee! I smoked him....!"
    QUOTE]

    yes, the letter of the law might technically protect a "good shoot", but jury's decide trial outcomes- not always the actual law. A smart CCW holder thinks about not only shoot/no shoot decisions, but also the post shot ramifications on what he did. All I was suggesting was that possibly it may look bad in a jury's eyes (you could get a anti-gun slanted jury and a slick talking prosecutor) if you were "loaded for bear". Again, you do have to weigh the risk vs. reality in choosing what and how much to carry for the average civilian. If we didn't have to worry about legalities and impressions to others then we'd all be walking around with short barreled 12 ga. shotguns instead of handguns for defense.
    If it comes down to a situation where myself (alone or with my family) am threatened bodily by an attacker, then I would shoot to protect, but I'd also feel much more confident after the shooting knowing that I wasn't going to look like I was more apt to shoot in a possibly hostile jury's eyes.

  5. #50
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    . Unless you jump up and down, shouting, "Whoopiee! I smoked him....!"
    rob.... you just did something no man has done to me in a long time...

    I giggled


    here is my man card, you may now destroy it.
    To those that paid for my freedom,
    I WILL NEVER FORGET.

    As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.

  6. #51
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    No problems with jury, I was trained one reload, preferably two reloads per gun. I was trained BUG is preferable. Again, number of bullets really doesn't matter... I'm carrying one or two reloads for each gun. It's defendable and prudent.

    I can bring in a whole host of people including fellow law enforcement trainers to back that up. I have a whole host of training materials, training records, case law and such to defend my decision of one or two reloads for each gun I carry.

    I have never been arrested, I have no criminal record, no arrests for assaults, burglery, drugs, DUI's, no temp restraining orders, no domestic violence or anything! Prior military with honorable discharge. My past is crystal clean!

    I am a public servant in a high risk occupation, my off duty job of teaching EMS, Homeland Security classes, FEMA & Emergency Management classes and such takes me to towns and cities and places in bad neighborhoods I have no control over when traveling out of town or out of state.

    What ever a prosecutor can bring up about the number of bullets I had or how many guns i carried, he can not paint me in the light of being a criminal or thug or anything other than a law abiding citizen.

    I think I would have no problem before a jury. YMMV
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FknRa View Post
    rob.... you just did something no man has done to me in a long time...

    I giggled


    here is my man card, you may now destroy it.
    S'okay, I hope it would have gotten a smirk from Chesty.

    va, I'm not trying to jump your case, but the actual progression of events is:

    1) If the investigating/arriving officers see no apparent malfeasance on your part, you're probably okay(as in, "the odds of being prosecuted are declining").

    2) If the DA reviews the evidence presented, and decides its too clean to touch, and/or they are pro-community, and they do not file charges. You're clear.

    If #1 is iffy, #2 will probably (but not always) take you to court.

    Nothing in #1 or #2 deals with the civil suit that the Jesus-loving-church-going-mother-supporting-momma's-boy's family is likely to bring. Civil suits are free-for-alls. Unless you can articulate the fact that you knew homie's tattoo meant, "Death to Whateverdemographicyouare", and/or you are a public servant, you will most likely be in civil court, regardless of criminal prosecution.

    Bottom line: one should not be so afraid of prosecution that one gets killed and allows the BG to take one's weapon off one's leaking carcass. This would be considered extremely bad manners by the next person who gets shot, with the weapon one has provided for the BG's convenience.

    With regard to thinking about the ramifications of action,that was my purpose in posting the Tacoma incident. The CCer did nothing to alter the course of events, and is (IIRC) partially paralyzed, and pooping in a belly-bag. No jury in the country would have billed him, but he kept "thinking it through". This is the difference training makes. If you're in a bad car wreck, do you want the paramedic to go through repetitive cycles and agonize over the decision tree before acting to aid you? Of course not, and the analogy is exact. Act to address the immediately observable and emminent issue, deal with sequelae as they arise.

    Be able to articulate your decision-making process, and your actions. Have a good attorney. Take him to lunch, before you need him/her. My charting and articulation has fended off attorneys on two occassions, 1 professional,1 personal. If you train with reloads, there you go...

    We all do what we are comfortable doing, but concerns need to be rationally based. This is why in some venues I would carry a Glock, 3mags, and a trunk gun, in others- my Seecamp.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
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    When my wife and I go to the Mall of America, I carry 3 guns with reloads. My 6946 12+1, Kel-tec P11 12+1 (both use the same mags so two reloads 12 + 12) and my P32 bug 7+1 rounds for a total of 58 rounds.

    This is what I feel comfortable with.
    MNBurl

    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    Some of the most well trained tactical operators... run with the saying. "Two is one, one is none." Most malfunctions in autos are mag related so it is just good sense to have an extra, not just for the round count. Most revolvers, small or big, carry only 5 to 8 rounds. so a reload is just common sense. Most bad guys especially ones hopped up on drugs do not go down with the #1 or #5 shot, and in the above referred incidents were firing back. It is not an issue of paranoia, but self preservation.
    Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.


    I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.

  10. #55
    Member Array vashooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNBurl View Post
    When my wife and I go to the Mall of America, I carry 3 guns with reloads. My 6946 12+1, Kel-tec P11 12+1 (both use the same mags so two reloads 12 + 12) and my P32 bug 7+1 rounds for a total of 58 rounds.

    This is what I feel comfortable with.
    I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm not saying anything negative about you as a person, but 3 guns on your body for a trip to the mall is beyond practical and reasonable in my book. I'll definitely agree that an extra mag is a good thing for a carry gun... I'll even go so far as to say that having a back-up gun isn't totally paranoid... but 3 handguns??? No law prevents it, and I'm not saying you're a bad person for doing in, but I think that's carrying the "armed citizen" thing a bit far. I may catch flak for say this, but I know I'm not the only one thinking it...

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vashooter View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm not saying anything negative about you as a person, but 3 guns on your body for a trip to the mall is beyond practical and reasonable in my book. I'll definitely agree that an extra mag is a good thing for a carry gun... I'll even go so far as to say that having a back-up gun isn't totally paranoid... but 3 handguns??? No law prevents it, and I'm not saying you're a bad person for doing in, but I think that's carrying the "armed citizen" thing a bit far. I may catch flak for say this, but I know I'm not the only one thinking it...
    I was thinking along the same lines. One gun for me, but I carry my two hands with me.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  12. #57
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    I'm a what ever floats your boat kinda guy, but I do think BUGs are a bit much for CCW.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vashooter View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm not saying anything negative about you as a person, but 3 guns on your body for a trip to the mall is beyond practical and reasonable in my book. I'll definitely agree that an extra mag is a good thing for a carry gun... I'll even go so far as to say that having a back-up gun isn't totally paranoid... but 3 handguns??? No law prevents it, and I'm not saying you're a bad person for doing in, but I think that's carrying the "armed citizen" thing a bit far. I may catch flak for say this, but I know I'm not the only one thinking it...
    Everyone does what is comfortable to them. Note: One of my guns would be handed to my wife if necessary.

    If you have not been to the MOA, it is a 4 to 8 hour effort and you maybe 2 miles away from the car.
    MNBurl

    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by vashooter View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm not saying anything negative about you as a person, but 3 guns on your body for a trip to the mall is beyond practical and reasonable in my book. I'll definitely agree that an extra mag is a good thing for a carry gun... I'll even go so far as to say that having a back-up gun isn't totally paranoid... but 3 handguns??? No law prevents it, and I'm not saying you're a bad person for doing in, but I think that's carrying the "armed citizen" thing a bit far. I may catch flak for say this, but I know I'm not the only one thinking it...
    I've been on these type of forums long enough to know that "one man's paranoid is another man's reasonable precautions.".

    It's an unwinnable arguement to try to convince someone that carrying several dozen rounds of ammo on their person, carrying multiple handguns, or even going armed to the bathroom or shower in the middle of the night is "over the top."

    An awful lot of people out there think that carrying so much as a pocket knife is "unnecessary" these days.

    I've just decided not to dignifiy that kind of silly argument by using it to critcize the carry or equipment practices of anybody else.

    When you read something that seems "paranoid" or see a creepy little mall ninja in his full tac-gear having an Orange Julius at the food court just smile to yourself, roll your eyes even if you like but realize that they are most likely:

    A: people who have had the kind of bad experience that tends to make you a little more cautious and well equipped. (There but for the grace of God (and the fact that you haven't encountered a BG in your house when you were on your way back from the toilet) go you.)

    B: Harmless goof-balls who type big and talk big and aren't much more than legends in their own minds and subscribers to "Soldier of Fortune".
    "Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."--Unknown Quaker

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