OH Man... what some people think
This is a discussion on OH Man... what some people think within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am over in Colorado visiting my Mom and my Stepdad... both are in their late 60's and wonderful folks... Anyway.... he got a gun ...
July 23rd, 2007 01:29 PM
July 23rd, 2007 01:49 PM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
Your stepdad is maybe one of those folks who subscribes entirely to the principle of ''the gun will scare anything off'' - and so need never actually be fired
I have come across a few folks who I am sure think this way.
I doubt you can!!
how in the world do I convince him otherwise???
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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July 23rd, 2007 02:00 PM
There are two ways that I'd try to explain it:
1. It's not about trying to "hurt" or "kill" your attacker. It's about, as surely as you can, stopping their attack. Death and/or injury is just a side-effect.
2. (And this might be more effective) Expanding bullets are less likely to over-penetrate or go through walls and other barriers and strike unintended targets.
"Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot."--Unknown Quaker
July 23rd, 2007 02:05 PM
IMHO, it is immoral, illegal, and probably fattening to shoot somebody who needs shootin', "a little bit"!
Ammunition is cheap, be generous.
July 23rd, 2007 02:31 PM
It is amazing how quickly he would change his mind if something bad, God forbid, were to ever happen to him or your Mom. Sometimes unfortunately that is what it will take. Let's hope if that occurs he does not hesitate to inflict the damage necessary to stop the attack, or they get off with just enough of a scare to change his mind.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
July 23rd, 2007 02:58 PM
I agree with Chris on this one. Your step Dad probably believes he will just shoot someone in the leg and hurt them or scare them away and that he won't actually "kill" anyone, or hurt them bad enough to where they will either die or be maimed for the rest of their life.
I had a customer in the store who was under this same persuasion.
The thing to point out to him is that even if he is the best shot in the world, once that bullet leaves the muzzle of his gun, he has absolutely not control over where it is going to hit on a moving target and how much damage it is going to do.
Even if he was Annie Oklie (is that how you spell her name) and he shot for the leg, who's to say he won't nick an artery and have his attacker bleed to death before help arrives?
Who's to say he aims for the leg but as he pulls the trigger, the attacker moves and he ends up shooting him in the pelvis or in the spine, maiming him for life.
No matter how good you are, you have no control over the damage (or lack of) that your bullets do, whether they be JHP or FMJs.
If you don't want to hurt anyone, carrying a gun is the WRONG way to go about it. Get pepper spray or something. Bullets are lethal, whether you want them to be or not.
July 23rd, 2007 03:11 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that you are more likely to die from the fmj's because of the bleeding it causes. True or not?
July 23rd, 2007 03:20 PM
You usually can't save people from their own willfull ignorance, or their stupidity. You'll drive yourself crazy trying.
Just be thankful that you yourself understand what's wrong with his way of thinking and won't be making the same mistakes he makes.
July 23rd, 2007 03:28 PM
Tell him to get bear spray or a slingshot. I don't think the man is going to understand.
The Gunsite Blog
ITFT / Quick Kill Review
"It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008
July 23rd, 2007 03:35 PM
Feel free to quote me in the sense of i Know a fella who was a colorado cop that trained agencys ... and he says you want good hollopoint rounds in the 9mm because it can and will penetrate so well that when the old . 45 round of ww2 only dents an army helmet the 9 will shoot all the way thro .. so get expanding ammo for downrange safety . We here in colorado dont like a buss load of nuns and orphans shot up if your rounds super penetrate lol .e
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
July 23rd, 2007 03:39 PM
FWIW, For his stated use, camping in the mountains, I'd probably use FMJ for 4 legged critters. They have hair (its actually very tough) are generally thicker than a human and a self defense round may not penetrate far enough. Over penetration is not much of an issue in uncrowded areas.
"When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
"... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged
July 23rd, 2007 04:10 PM
His 92 is a good gun (though not in the woods) and his choice of ammo is correct (unless he can get a heavier FMJ) for camping with that gun in my humble opinion.
While a 9mm JHP will undoubtedly be better against a mountain lion or two legged preditor, against a bear it would be a noise maker. Bears are much too dense for a 9mm JHP to do anything but injure it.
When shooting an animal (or anything else) you first need enough penetration to get to something vital. If you can get there with energy to spare, then expanding to a larger diameter will inflict more damage.
I might take a chance on Double Tap 147gr JHPs, but what he really needs is penetration. A light weight 9mm JHP probably won't penetrate more than 4-5 inches on a bear, and that assumes it doesn't hit a shoulder or front leg bone which would stop the bullet in its tracks. Bears are a LOT more dense than we are. Gel tests are designed to simulate people, not bears. Tearing up a little skin and muscle won't stop a bear attack unless the bear wants it to.
Nevertheless, he'll probably be ok with his 9mm against a bear, regardless of load. The noise and stingy impact will probably run it off. The problem is for the next guy down the trail that runs into the wounded, though not at all incapacitated, bear.
If that happens, I hope it happens to someone with enough gun and not some Starbuck drinking, nature loving, tree hugger with a Bichon Frise lap/guard dog from Boulder. It would probly leave them alone, but kill their perfectly innocent child.
Personally I carry a 4" .44 magnum in the mountains here in Colorado. I recently stepped down to it from a .454 Casull (which I think is overkill in Colorado) for convenience. On occassion, when 4 wheeling rather than camping and only really stopping for lunch or to scout out new campsites, I'll cary my 1911 with Double Tap 230gr. FMJ-FPs in it. It's totally the wrong gun and caliber, but it's easier to coneceal as I head back into town.
In my .44mag, I use Winchester Supreme Partition Gold. I like it because it will always hold together and only expand a little bit. Hornady XTPs would do just as well for the same reason. A semi-jacketed flat point would be great, but I can't practice with semi-jacketed bullets at my range. I realize there are more powerful loads out there, but I'd rather keep it controllable than try to turn my .44 into a .454 with a hot load.
In my .454 I believe the load is irrelevant for black bear sized game, so I use Winchester Platinum Tips. A 260 grain JHP that travels at mach 1.6 will do fine against a 200-400 pound bear regardless of expansion, though they expand to about an inch in diameter.
Last edited by MountainPacker; July 23rd, 2007 at 06:04 PM.
July 23rd, 2007 04:33 PM
Jeebus ... why don't I ever come across those kinds of deals?
Originally Posted by JPP
16 rounds of 147gr +p+ are going to stop a black bear or feral dog just as well as 6 rounds of .44mag.
Honestly on the trails around here, a feral dog or 2 legged predator is the more likely danger than bear anyway.
July 23rd, 2007 04:36 PM
I wonder if I missed the boat when he was showing me his 92.
I assumed it was kept in the camper for "2 legged" animals.... in which case my trying to explain the benefits of HP's would make total sense. Now...... I wonder if He is more concerned with the black bears and the occasional mountain lion.... in which case maybe the FMJ's make a bit more sense to me. I need to ask him what he thinks. Now.... being from Kansas I don't think about such critters, but I have a good buddy in Utah who spends a ton of time in the mountains and he always has his S&W 4" model 29... with 240 grain soft point...... which to me makes a ton of sense for the big 4 legged animals you might have a standoff with. Maybe if I were my step dad I'd have a mag with some hot 124-147 grain solids for wondering around in the woods and fishing during the day and then switch out to a mag with some +P HP's at night in case someone tries to break in to their camper or tent at night.
Best of both worlds for a 9mm in the mountins I guess.
Still.... if I lived up here I would definitely have a .44 on my hip for traveling around on foot all day in the backwoods!
WHAT ELSE COULD YOU ASK FOR?
July 23rd, 2007 04:44 PM
Unfortuatly, Society has taught us that ALL violence is bad. Even if we are defending ourselves.
Most people cannot fathom how we could even consider killing someone, that we might have to be the judge and decide that our own life is more important than someone elses.
I know that I am differant. I know that if it comes down to it, I am capable of an increadable ammount of violence to protect me and mine. This bothers some people. We have chosen to embrace it and make it part of our lives.
To those that paid for my freedom,
I WILL NEVER FORGET.
As with all statements I've made and All that I will make, please check your local laws to verify accuracy. (and if i'm wrong let me know as I like to be right in the future) After all I'm just some goofball posting on an internet forum.
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