Carry in Church-again? - Missouri Church Shooting

[sourmash]

Mike 1, The families affected by this cowards actions are in our prayers. It's hard to understand these things. There seems to be no reason, but how can we get the lawmakers to see that some of these things could be prevented or at least reduce the loss of lives. I had friends who lost family in the Jonesboro school shooting several years back. One of the shooters got out of prison and was caught with drugs and a firearm less than two weeks later.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[XD Joe]

Last year, I had the opportunity to hear a mssionary talk about his ministry to preach the gospel in Pakistan. He dresses like them, speaks the language like a native and is almost as well versed in the Koran as he is in the bible. He said a lot of very interesting things, including that he was almost martyred twice, but the Lord saved him.

Anyway, he said 2 things that really stand out in my mind. The first thing is that Osama bin Laden is an excellent Muslim. He then explained why, I couldnt remember the details. The next thing he said was that Muslim terrorists here in America are interested in 2 soft targets, shopping malls and churches.

[miklcolt45]

Last year, I had the opportunity to hear a mssionary talk about his ministry to preach the gospel in Pakistan.

...The next thing he said was that Muslim terrorists here in America are interested in 2 soft targets, shopping malls and churches.

Hey, Joe,

Very interesting. I was reading an article this week where the author wrote about targets in the U.S. which terrorists may have targeted. He mentioned in particular a synchronized attack by a bunch of 'sleepers' in the states simply going out with guns and shooting people (similar to the Malvo/Muhammad shootings a couple years back-only many assailants). I immediately thought about churches being targets in that plan.

So, I agree. This has to be thought about and planned for. JMO.

[XD Joe]

Mike,
Yeah, I am pretty certain that I'm not the only guy who carries in my church. We have a lot of military from Ft Bragg (Special Forces and 82d Airborne types ).

Regards,
Joe

[packinnova]

What the heck are these "semi-automatic machine pistols" I keep hearing about?

BTW, VCDL just addressed this with the Police Chief there. It looks like the typical media re-write/slant.

**************************************************
31. Police chief corrects record in Missouri church shooting
**************************************************

[VCDL Board member John Fenter to Chief McCracken via email]

Chief McCracken,

I just read the news story on the church shooting, and my sympathies
to the families and the congregation. I did want to ask a question:
you didn't really tell reporters that the suspect had a
"semiautomatic machine pistol," did you? There's no such thing since
a machine pistol, by definition, is either full auto or burst
capable. And the shooter almost certainly did not have the $200 BATFE
federal tax stamp and background check required to possess a machine
pistol.

I assume the reporter was just ignorant of firearms terminology or
misheard you. I also assume that the shooter did NOT have a Missouri
concealed weapons permit and probably obtained the firearms through
illicit means. I know that churches are off-limits to firearms carry
in Missouri, but that doesn't seem to stop the criminals and the
crazies. I hope you can make a good case and put this guy away for a
LONG time.

Thanks for your time, and once again, my sympathies.

[Chief McCracken to John Fenter, in a quick response]

I have corrected this today. I misspoke and they ran with it. I find
that anytime they can discredit gun ownership they will. I appreciate
your concern for gun rights, which I fully support.

[miklcolt45]

Okay Gang,

Here is my dilemma:

While FL law does not restrict carrying in church, we have a Pre-school on our grounds (included now is the Voluntary Pre-Kindergarten for which we receive state money). FL DOES say you cannot carry on school grounds.

The law does not (IIRC) say anything about pre-schools. It also says nothing about schools at churches.

Can I carry at church during pre-school hours? Can I carry when school is not in session? Can I carry on church property as long as I stay away from the portion of the campus where the children are?

There is an attorney who is also a CWL holder in the congregation. He made me a copy of the FL statutes, but it really doesn't answer the questions above.

Of course, I would love legally defensible answers from this august collective brain trust. But, where would I find answers?

[Ron]

Okay Gang,

Here is my dilemma:

While FL law does not restrict carrying in church, we have a Pre-school on our grounds (included now is the Voluntary Pre-Kindergarten for which we receive state money). FL DOES say you cannot carry on school grounds.

The law does not (IIRC) say anything about pre-schools. It also says nothing about schools at churches.

Can I carry at church during pre-school hours? Can I carry when school is not in session? Can I carry on church property as long as I stay away from the portion of the campus where the children are?

There is an attorney who is also a CWL holder in the congregation. He made me a copy of the FL statutes, but it really doesn't answer the questions above.

Of course, I would love legally defensible answers from this august collective brain trust. But, where would I find answers?

Great questions Mike. I have the same sort of dilemma. We have a pre-school at our Temple, which is in a separate part of the building away from the sanctuary.

Here is my opinion and since I have no current legal authority to support it, it is just my educated guess at what I think the courts will do with these issues.

First, I don't think that we can carry while pre-school is in session, unless the school is held in a completely separate building, which ours is not. I think that the courts would construe school building to include a pre-school. If in a separate building, even part of the same campus, then I think you can legally carry.

If school is not in session, as for example during our Friday night services then I think that it is permissable for us to carry, and I do, in fact, carry. My reasoning is that we are dealing with a multi-purpose building, and since the building is, at that time, not being used as a school, but as a house of prayer, the statutory prohibition would not apply.

Just my opinion, of course, and I could be very wrong.
Ron

[miklcolt45]

Great questions Mike. I have the same sort of dilemma. We have a pre-school at our Temple, which is in a separate part of the building away from the sanctuary.

Here is my opinion and since I have no current legal authority to support it, it is just my educated guess at what I think the courts will do with these issues.

First, I don't think that we can carry while pre-school is in session, unless the school is held in a completely separate building, which ours is not. I think that the courts would construe school building to include a pre-school. If in a separate building, even part of the same campus, then I think you can legally carry.

Our preschool is in a separate building except for the 30 minutes a week when they are in the sanctuary for chapel. Of course on days when I am doing chapel, I would not carry in there.

If school is not in session, as for example during our Friday night services then I think that it is permissable for us to carry, and I do, in fact, carry. My reasoning is that we are dealing with a multi-purpose building, and since the building is, at that time, not being used as a school, but as a house of prayer, the statutory prohibition would not apply.

Just my opinion, of course, and I could be very wrong.
Ron

Okay, still looking for suggestions on how to find out. Call the Sheriff's Office? State Attorney? What say y'all?

[skvinson]

I would definitely call a local authority to find out. I remember hearing in my CCW class (AZ) that a private school doesn't fall under the federal or state statutes. It is private property. So, you are bound by the school's own restrictions (or lack of). Again, that was in AZ. I'd check into your state.

[ccw9mm]

Okay, still looking for suggestions on how to find out. Call the Sheriff's Office? State Attorney?

Yes, of course. Your attorney, as well. They all should know.