About 1 ½ years ago my $2,000 mountain bike was stolen from my neighbor’s carport, let them borrow it. I wrote it off thinking I would never see it again. On Friday around 11:00 p.m. My wife decided she wanted to go get a soda at the local 7-11. I had removed my firearm earlier and locked it up for the night (have shotgun handy at home) because I didn’t think we would be going anywhere. Just a quick trip, right?
We pull up to the store and low and behold there is my mountain bike in front of the store, I knew it was mine because of the type of bike it was and the dents and dings I had put on it. I confronted the man who was riding it and he said he was borrowing it from a friend and it wasn’t his. Had the clerks call the cops, tried to detain him until the cops showed up but he said he wasn’t going down for having stolen property and took off I left my wife at the store and followed him to where he said the owner was. When I got there this dirt bag walks out holding a crowbar and hammer, I’m 6’4” and 255 and we was 150lbs wet, if that, so I wasn’t too worried. I got out and talked to him, he stated that he bought it from a swap meet and we argued for a bit then the cops showed up. They told him to go get the bike at that point I told the LEO I have my CCP (required by Utah law) but wasn’t carrying he looked at my hip and said thanks for letting him know, he was really cool about it. Needless to say I lost the serial number of the bike in a move and the store I bought it from had a computer crash so there is no way for me to prove it’s mine, his word against mine. The BG gets away with one. That was my first encounter with LEO since getting my permit, went will even though I wasn’t carrying. Learned two things; 1. Always carry 2. Keep better care of my records
Question: had I been carrying would it have been a good Idea or bad Idea to detain the first guy with my property at the store with my firearm drawn? Or how would you have handled it?
Personally, I would not attempt to detain him at the store with my firearm. As a civilian, I feel the only time I should draw my gun is if I'm in a life-threatening situation. That clearly wasn't the case. I would have followed the guy to see where he was going just like you did, and called the cops. Would try to avoid any encounter until the cops show up. I don't trust the judicial system. Too bad the bad guys got away with one.
It would have been an interesting situation if you were packing and shot him after he came out with those weapons. Could be interpreted as you are the aggressor, considering you went to his house, etc. Would be watching you on next Saturdays "48 Hours Mystery". Take care.
Here in Florida you wouldn't have been legal to detain with firearm drawn.(not allowed to use firearm to gain leverage on someone) the other guy with the crow bar maybe but would have been chancy since you looked for trouble in a way.(not that what you did was wrong just not a good idea to draw on him unless you were defenitly in danger) his story might have right as for buying it at a swap meet, BG might do this for the money instead of having stolen property.
Even better, never loan gear you desire to keep to 'friends'.
I've learned this lesson multiple times and no body treats your stuff as well or as secure as you the guy who paid money for it does.
As to bicycles I as a rule never allow them out of my direct sight and physical contact even when parked. No leaving them outside or in driveways either.
Bicycles are way too easy to skate off with and the current 'owner' you confronted was likely telling the truth as that bike has probably changed hands several times over before ending up with him and on loan to his own friend that you ran into.
Did you atleast get an insurance claim against your own friends home owner insurance toward the loss and it's value?
If so then there was no real loss to you and if not then the friend himself should have bought you a new bike considering he/she is the one who facilitated it's loss. Or rather that's what I'd expect and would do if I were your friend.
Oh and even if you were carrying I would have called the cops and let them handle it directly.
Getting shot/beaten or shooting someone over a bicycle (even a $2K bike) is not worth the trouble or resulting court costs and lawyer fees.
I'll second that! Friends often have the best of intentions, but no one treats your stuff like you do. I have a VERY short list of people I'd lend a $2,000 item to.
Absolutely no draw. You could have forced an issue that was totally unnecessary. Plus you didn't even have proof the property was yours. In Ky I believe it would have been legal on my own property catching him in the act, but I still wouldn't do it.
Do you have to notify LEO even if you're not carrying? I wouldn't think so.
I would not have pulled my firearm if I did have had it not even when I saw they guy with the crowbar but it would have felt nice to have it just in case, I'm with you only to protect me and mine. just a hypothetical.
I'd have a hard time leaving the bike with the rider. He may have bought it at a swap meet.I'd have asked him what he paid and offered to reimberse him for his purchase price.If he was not willing to do that,the bike goes in the pickup with me. Let him call the police if he can prove ownership.Anyways, you know where the bike is,when the time is right grab it.In the meantime, find some documentation, if you can find it have the cops get it back for you.Oh yeah, don't forget the gun next time.
Yea, please tell me your joking. Sure officer I was stealing my bike back that got stolen from me 2 years ago. No officer, I don't have any proof of ownership. That will get your license revoked pretty damn quick. I believe in most states burglary of a residence or theft is enough to get your permit revoked.
First of all, if no police report was filed when the bike was stolen originally, how is anyone supposed to believe you when you tell the police it was stolen, there is no report for them to look at and reference to begin to sort this out. Secondly, you have no current proof that you ever purchased or owned that bike at any time, other than your word. Well, that just don't hold up, when the police are trying to sort things out.
Lastly, no, you don't pull your gun to detain someone that you think is on your old bike. Bad idea, additionally, I think it is a bad idea to confront the person at their home. What would you have done if he had gone in his home and came out with at shotgun? Would you have still confronted him. Sure you can follow them, to find out where they live, but then again what are you going to do. Refer to first section for your lack of proof of ownership of that item.
Just because you have a concealed carry license doesn't mean an officer is supposed to take your word over someone elses, especially when neither of you have actual proof.
:9:I think the question you would have asked yourself in the back of the Police Car would have been , Was that guy telling the truth? Maybe and the embarrasment and loss of your right to carry is worth alot more than 2 grand. I would be mad myself though and while I may be able to give good advice find it hard to follow it sometimes.
Good luck .:blink::scruntiny:
OK, I read your post, please explain to me where I missed the fact that you were in fear of your life.
That is the only time you should be drawing your weapon, or defense of a third party that could use "Deadly Force" to defend themselves. If you want to detain people go work in Corrections, they detain people daily. If you had tried to detain me you would be in jail for Attempted Kidnapping.
As far as following the person, I'll leave it alone, but confronting them at their home? Man, you confront me at my home you had better bring some serious proof. I would have told you once to leave if you were on my property. After that you are going to jail.
Sorry to be such "Hard Case" but some of the things you did could've landed you in serious trouble. As a firearms carrier you have a responsibility to more than just yourself.
Learned two things; 1. Always carry 2. Keep better care of my records
Question: had I been carrying would it have been a good Idea or bad Idea to detain the first guy with my property at the store with my firearm drawn? Or how would you have handled it?
"Always carry" -- that one goes without saying, although I would not have let my always carrying make a difference in this situation.
Now then... detain the guy riding your stolen bicycle at gunpoint?! How badly do you want to get to know his friends in jail?
I don't know why it's even crossing your mind that you would have been justified in drawing a gun on this guy to "detain" him for the cops. And besides, what would have happened when the cops got there? You would have looked like a guy trying to ROB this guy of HIS bike, since you don't have any way to prove it had ever been yours!
Geez, and we're criticizing gang-bangers for opting to use guns to settle the most minor disputes.
Always carry, but not for things like this. In fact, if this is the kind of thing you think you should draw a gun for, I would reassess that "always carry" advice. It might be better advice to get further training on the law as it pertains to concealed carry and use of deadly force first.
Sorry, I think that your thinking on this is a bit off course.
No draw of gun unless life is in danger. This did not qualify and you would have regretted your actions. Sorry about your bike. That was an expensive lesson to learn.
Wow! I said I would not have drawn if I had it, matter of fact no one would have know except LOE when they showed up because I am required by law to do so. I'd like to think of myself as a diplomatic person and have never been in a fight except in elementary school 27 years ago and I would do everything in power to keep the situation from escalating as a matter of fact I did, I let the guy ride away. the guy who said he bought it and I just talked and I made it a point to stay in the street and not on his property even when the cops did show up. I know the laws on deadly force and I don't take my right to carry lightly, I'm no fool. I guess I should have clearified my question.
can you legally detain someone with a citizen arrest if you have proof of ownership? and yes a police report was filed when stolen and the cops found that report but no serial number was recorded and without proof of ownership it was an expensive lesson.
Illegal everywhere. You would have been arrested for multiple offenses including reckless endangerment and unlawful imprisonment if you drew your gun for any reason other than self-defense. Guaranteed to lose your permit. Plus, the guy would have had a great civil suit. He still may. Know the law before you draw. Declaring you had a CWP when not carrying is not good. It begs the question: Did you have a gun then ditch it?
And can you detain someone on a "citizens's arrest" if you have what you consider proof of a 1 1/2 year old crime? You're asking the wrong people. If you want an opinion, the answer is no. Your not talking felony here. What would you do if walked away? You're talking illegal restraint at the least if you inhibited his movement.
Since you're not a sworn officer with arrest powers you're only choice here is to observe his movements and call the police.
No I'm not joking and I am a former LEO. You called the police believing they could help you when in fact,you could not substantiate your claim.Had you not called police and merely threatened to do so, you probably could have negotiated to get your bike back by telling the guy that you had the bill of sale and are about to call the police to rock his world.The game is "cops and robbers" you are allowed to cheat! Chuck.
Absolutely agree. Or you could have offered him $100 bucks for it and walked away with it. Cops and Robbers is a really fun game and yes we are allowed to alter the truth when dealing with bad guys.
You’re kidding, right? Eleven PM on a Friday night, convenience store, hold on let me check my file. Just what I thought, that’s where crimes occur and the people that commit them frequent. And on that note…
Had the clerks call the cops, tried to detain him until the cops showed up but he said he wasn’t going down for having stolen property and took off I left my wife at the store and followed him to where he said the owner was.
Kidding again, right. You go after who is what equates to an alleged felon without having your gun on? Which even if you did have it you shouldn’t do that. My concern is that you left your wife at the same store where you just encountered one bad guy. Was he the only one there??? I hope your wife carry’s as well.
I would never leave my family to go after anyone…their safety is paramount. Try some situational awareness training and get a grip on carrying all the time, having a family plan and how to address situations that arise.
In TX you can legally protect your property, but you would have to prove it's yours. Also, that grand jury/civil court thing. You did OK with no gun displayed, but could have been a real nightmare had you pulled one.
I do like crankshop1000's suggestion.
Put a portion of your drivers license number on the bike, the RCMP (Canadian police) back home tell you to do this, that way you can give them your DL# and the number on the bike will be a partial match.
The police can then look up your credentials on the in car computer.
Now if your state uses part of your SSN you may not want to do that, but its just a suggestion.
America the beautiful where everyone is entitled to their opinion.LEO's lose their cherry the first time some shiester lawer makes them look like a fool in court because they follow the "rules" to the letter and are totally surprised to find out that nobody else has to.. You soon find out that law enforcement is indeed like "cops and robbers" in that the BG's can and will do anything to avoid taking a fall.That being said, all LEO's have a certain moral code to which they do their jobs,aside from the letter of the law.It is called conscience and discretion. You cannot steal your own property and you cannot legally own stolen property. The owner can choose to let his $2000 bike stay where it is, or he can try to get it back. He would have had a much better chance of getting the bike back if he had tried my method first. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
"Citizens Arrest Authorities" vary greatly across the country, you should know the ones in your state. In Texas you could make a "cirizens arrest" under CCP 18.16 (Preventing the Consequences of Theft) but you had better have substantial proof that the property belongs to you. No where in this scenario do I see a justification for the "Use of Deadly Force"(or threatened use of deadly force).
If you could not provide legitimate proof of ownership (in Texas) and forcibly take the property from the person, you could be looking at "Felony Theft" and possibly "Robbery by Threat", neither of these are a good thing. Best lesson to take from this IMHO is to record S/N's of all items of real value and keep them in a safe place (in case you need them) and know your state's laws . To me, no property is worth placing you or your wife in jeapordy over.
Good Luck
I have been following this thread.
I think I understand it.
S. A $2,000 bike was stolen from a neighbor's porch/carport.
Q. Was it reported and a police report filed.
S. Approximatley 2 years later the stolen bike was spotted and the orginial owner confronted the person having the bike. Police was called.
Q Did the officer check the serial number on the bike to confirm it had been reported stolen?
A. Orginial owner cannot claim bike because he does not have the paperwork on him
Q. Does police ID the perp. obtain the serial number fill out out a FI
and ask the orginial owner to come to the station the next day with the paper work.
Back to the orginial question Was a police report filed?
30 years as an investigator leads me to believe something is missing. :-O
Sorry to hear about such an expensive lesson. We would like to learn from the mistaks of others. It was a non-gun situation. I don't think I would have confronted the guys at all. After making sure the family is safe, maybe a stealth tail to lead to the BG's residence. Even with a serial# to prove it was mine and an old police report on file, I think I'd have let the police do the confronting. After you get old enough you get tired of peddling your a$$ anyway
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Defensive Carry
5.4M posts
117.5K members
Since 2004
A forum community dedicated to defensive firearm owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about everyday carry, optics, holsters, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!