Need some help in explaining things

Need some help in explaining things

This is a discussion on Need some help in explaining things within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; To a non-carry permit holder, "our ways" can seem odd. Mrshonts will be getting his carry permit soon, but as someone who's been packing since ...

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  1. #1
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    Need some help in explaining things

    To a non-carry permit holder, "our ways" can seem odd.

    Mrshonts will be getting his carry permit soon, but as someone who's been packing since she turned 21 talking to someone with limited firearms experience, it's been difficult explaining things, like why I carry more than one gun, or why I don't like going to places where I cannot carry. He understands now why I carry more than one gun, and his time here has been beneficial in explaining the armed mindset.

    Recently he wanted to take a trip to Chicago, and I was not enthusiastic about going. I don't care for "Communist states" - any state that does not recognize the TN carry permit or insists on leaving their citizens as unarmed victims. I have other places I can go. I don't like our fun spoiled, however, as I enjoy our time together. I tried to come up with alternate locations we can visit, but Mrshonts does not understand why I insist on being able to carry everywhere. He says he wants me to be able to feel safe even if I do leave my firearm at home, and does not understand why I don't want to leave it behind while we vacation.

    We've had a lengthy discussion on the topic; I've used the seatbelt analogy and Murphy's Law thing. I know I can go my entire life without anything happening, but I also know there's always the chance of anything happening. I don't carry just for myself, but also for the safety of the loved ones around me.

    We hope to find some middle ground here. I don't want to go to places I cannot carry, and Mrshonts is upset because he doesn't understand.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    When you figure it out tell me so i can try better to explaine it to the mrs she gets mad becuse i refuse to leave USA on vaction ... i do think i will have to go on vaction once with out carry ... and thats to HI beyond that i cant carry i sure as hell dont wanna go .

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    Betty - I have written on this sorta thing quite recently, in several threads. I won't go into a long diatribe again but just make a few points.

    I am, like you - leary of going anywhere without my piece - it has been on my person at all times quite a long while now. That is part of the problem - my feeling of ''perhaps today is the day'' - when I am without. Not paranoia just, an acknlowledgement that s**t happens - and not to order. I really do NOT want to encounter perhaps that one day in my life when my life is on the line, just to find I have an empty holster, or not even that!

    I also spout once more - '' you cannot make appointments for emergencies''.

    Thing is - there is no way on earth to KNOW, that any place we go is safe - may seem so but how to tell? Can't!! Many ''situations'' are bizarre - even down to a casual stop for gas - and something goes down.

    I all but refuse to go places where I am compromized by carry being forbidden. I like MD - but now will avoid it. Wife and I both, would love to ride up to see Niagara - can't see it happening because of carry in NY - lack of.

    So - well - hard to know what to suggest. I'll mention these again tho - are we gonna carry a spare tire today because we may have a flat? Like yesterday we KNEW (somehow) we wouldn't? Do we put on the seat belt today because we think we might wreck, when yesterday for some reason we thought we knew we wouldn't?

    I wear a watch - but would I only put that on, because I expected at some time of the day - I just ''might'' wanna tell the time? No - I want it there for when needed - like the other items just mentioned too - spare tire and use of belt.

    I would always ask one important question of anyone who thinks I can divest of carry just ''because''. Can they guarantee there will not be a problem?? Anyone who says yes is guilty of both over optimism and maybe too - economy of truth!!

    Good luck Betty!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    I hear you!

    Your relating seat belt usage to being armed is a good one. I see a range of possibilities:
    (a) nothing bad ever happens to me so my carrying is irrelevant
    (b) something so bad happens I am dead no matter how I am armed
    (c) something in between occurs, where being armed will give me a chance to survive and being unarmed will kill me.

    My reason for carrying is to survive in situation (c), where it makes a difference.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I can liken it to a lifelong habit I already have which is very similar to carrying a gun.

    I have carried a knife every day since I was 8 years old. I mean every darned day. I didn't take one to school as that was not allowed, but as soon as I got home the knife was in the pocket.

    Soon I was carrying two or three knives. Right now I'm carrying a Hideaway, a small SAK, a Leatherman Sideclip, and a Spyderco Yojimbo. Some people would think I am insane.

    But I have developed this habit over a lifetime. The longer I carried these tools, the more opportunities I had to see how they're all so useful.

    It got to the point where around 14 or 15 years old I absolutely hated not having a knife. It was so frustrating to know that I could use a tool that solved many of the problems I ran into day in and day out, but yet I was not allowed to carry this tool.

    By age 18 I had lots of pocket tools and knives and just couldn't stand not having one. I even keep a knife in my car in case I forget to put my usual knives in my pocket in the morning.

    I just cannot describe to you how much of a difference the presence of these simple tools makes in my day. How many times have I tightened a screw or opened a package.

    Then finally I had something almost happen to me. The short version is that I was alone, on my own, in my very first bachelor pad, when some strange guy started to follow me. The only thing I had with me of any use was a folder. Luckily nothing happened, but after a brief standoff I think the would be aggressor saw I had a knife in my hand even though I had meant to conceal it. The fact is I'll never know if that guy intended to harm me or not, but I like it that way.

    I had a similar experience last November with a handgun. I was traveling home for Thanksgiving when someone jumped out on the highway and began to wiggle people's car doors like he wanted to get in. I put the revolver on my knee, finger off the trigger, in plain view. The guy looked at me, then he looked at my gun, and then he ran away.

    And for a long time I lived in a ghetto with a Mossberg 500 as my only real comfort. I'm so glad I moved out. Even then every so often as an apartment dweller I hear things at my door at 3 AM.

    Mrshonts, I'm not a very exciting person and I don't lead a particularly dangerous life myself. Your profession is easily 50 times more dangerous. I'm a math nerd who likes to shoot things and I abhor the thought of attacking anyone in any way.

    But the fact is, personal tools like knives, guns, and flashlights have long been a hobby and fascination of mine, and although a lot of people don't understand why I value such things, it's because they've improved my quality of life and on two occassions their presence kept me safe.

    Regardless of your personal thoughts on the matter, which of course you will have to decide for yourself, I believe there is a God who works in mysterious ways. The thought has occurred to me that my interest in these things was something God put into my life when I was just a kid so that when that guy followed me, or when that possible would be car jacker was staring at me, I'd come out unscathed.

    Now it seems you're beginning later in life, which is in some ways advantageous, but I believe that like me, you too might some day be saved by your interest in CCW or personal defense in general.

    One of the greatest things I have enjoyed about my adult life is that I've found out I'm not all alone. I used to think I was the only person in the world who liked learning about guns and personal awareness and general preparedness and the personal tools we use to accomplish these things. It's a huge huge relief to realize that you're not the only person in the world concerned with these things.

    It's also a huge help. You'll find that eventually, you find people who have the same interests and they also have more skill and experience. They'll tell you helpful things. Betty for instance clued me in to the fact that they made snap caps for handguns. I never knew such a thing existed until maybe 2 years ago and I have used the heck out of snap caps since then.

    And you'll bring your own experiences to the table too. Even I make a good point every once in a while.

    The point I'm trying to make is that I've seen in my limited experience how the presence of a tool on one's person improves their quality of life, and I'm not a person who gets in trouble very often. I'm also trying to tell you that Betty is trying to tell you something that comes from experience, and it's very difficult to explain what takes a lifetime to learn.

    I haven't been "street legal" very long at all, but already it bothers me to not be carrying. Where I go my .38 goes. I hate airplanes. I'm beginning to resent that I can't take my gun into the building when I go to work. It isn't controlling my life or keeping me from doing what I do, but when I can avoid situations I don't like, I do so.

  6. #6
    Member Array mrshonts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    It isn't controlling my life or keeping me from doing what I do, but when I can avoid situations I don't like, I do so.
    First of all I apologize for Betty and I bringing our relationship onto this website but she and I talked and thouht it might be a good idea to get everyones thoughts about this situation and I thank you all for it (since I am still trying to understand).

    My whole thing with carrying wherever you go is that it limits you to going many places. I suppose that from my side I just don't understand why a person has to carry 24/7 anywhere you travel. I was not raised around guns like Betty was nor do I know much about guns yet. Why do you have to feel that having a gun at all times is going to protect you along with the feeling of looking over your shoulder "just in case." I want to share my life with Betty and don't want things to get in the way of stopping us. My whole thing is wanting her to understand that she can feel safe in places that we go and she not carry, I want to take her to places like D.C, New York, even travelling overseas someday. I just don't want this to get in the way of stopping us from living our lives to the fullest.

    I will have to admit that guns still scare me but I am learning everything I can the safest way that I can, and someday I would like to carry a gun with me when I can. When she and I first started talking about this I just thought it was paranoia that was setting in but I now know that that is not true. I understand that she wants to feel safe and also protect those around her but I want to also enjoy life without having to look over my shoulder every few minutes just in case something might happen.

    Well it's late and I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here but I'll be happy to discuss this with anyone so hopefully I will better understand where everyone is coming from. Thanks for all the advice!!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrshonts
    I want to also enjoy life without having to look over my shoulder every few minutes just in case something might happen.
    I think we all have that wish - and carrying a gun does not actually make that any different. Rather - it gives that opportunity for the one in a million situation where it may be live or die.

    Because risks are potentially everywhere, whether we carry or not we should be other than in condition white - meaning oblivious of our surroundings with regard to any risk. Rather we should be able to exist in a stress-free but condition yellow state - meaning simply that we ARE more aware of our environment and so able to spot potential hazards earlier - the good thing there is, gun or no gun - we stand a better chance of escape! Even driving a vehicle is way safer in condition yellow - it helps avoid accidents and makes one better prepared for action if the unforseen should occur.

    It is hard for many folks to see this though - many tend to think that because the last year saw no threats and no need to carry - that the next day, next week, coming year will, by default be the same. Every day is different. No one can (safely) assume that every day is bound to be free of risk - Murphy is everywhere!!

    I was concerned when my daughter and her old man visited NYC last year before going home - of course risk was minimal but, at same time I knew they had no recourse to any significant means of defence. All was of course just fine - usually will be.

    Bottom line - whilst no one wants to live always looking over their shoulder - it is a fact of life that doing so - in a subtle and stress-free way, is a safer way to go - it takes so little effort and is also I have to admit, a consequence for those of us who carry - much as anything because we are ever more determined to avoid trouble - the gun is no passport to a gunfight!!

    Whilst I doubt we will change your mind dramatically - I would just suggest you consider what we are saying and give it a broad and unbiased assessment. Be objective and honest with yourself too and in particular - try not to think of guns as dangerous - they only become so in the hands of evil people.... the ones we hope to protect ourselves from
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #8
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    Folks that teach any form of Defense of one's self state in some form or fashion : "To avoid trouble - do not be where trouble is, or might be".

    I did not venture down that alley as there might have 3 or 4 dudes with a baseball bat. - Richard Pryor
    [ yes I cleaned it up for the forum]

    I was taught to never start a fight - if I found myself in one, I had better end it.
    The word came down in the 5th grade the BIG 6th grade bully was coming for me next. I walked a different way home from school, I stayed clear from "his" area during recess, the cafeteria...he appeared one day from out behind some bushes, pushed aside the folks I was walking home with, and punched me. I slammed him with my math book , and went inside and didn't stop hitting, until I was pulled off by teacher who was driving by. I was afraid to stop hitting- didn't want him to be able to hit me. That is Murphy's Law. I took precautions, I was still found and attacked.

    I bought a brand new truck in '93, 128K miles now. I have a full size spare. Recently I for the first time actually had to use the jack and use my spare.

    I have driven from FL to PA, and all over who knows where , country roads, to Freeways. I have only had two flats. Brand new, with 200 miles , I was at the hardware store next to the dealer where I bought it. I came out and had a flat, seems a box of roofing nails had spilled off a truck - dealer came next door and gave me a new tire and fixed me up. I did nothing except drink his coffee and shoot the breeze.

    This last flat, where I had to change and use jack...right around the corner from where I live. I had to avoid a "situation" with thugs, took a hard right and busted a new tire going over the sewer...I limped home, changed the tire in the driveway. Thugs are doing some weird stuff at stop signs around here. I was CCW-ing, still better to avoid a greater # of folks, and use truck as first line of defense.

    There is enough areas locally I do not go, to avoid trouble. Mom had to see the old house, I didn't want to, we finally did under MY terms, and got into a situation, scared the crap out of mom, she is not used to being in my truck doing 180's and doing hard braking from 80 mph to 50 to take a corner and then speeding up to 100mph on a city street. "Yes mom, that was a gun, yes mom that was a gunshot..."

    I had business in a Fed Bldg, I couldn't CCW inside. I got caught as I left b/t bldg and my truck, had to break off an antenna from someone's truck to use as a weapon...these work very well btw.

    Came in once and the alarm bypassed, opened door to find myself looking at the muzzle of a .357, them things are loud when they go off indoors btw...

    Walked out of a courthouse after being the foreman on a jury, friends of the guy we found guilty of murder threatened my life on the courthouse steps...

    The most Helpless feeling I have ever had was in Jamacia. Came back to the Condo, and had been robbed. They even took my b/u Gerber knife. I don;t drink, I did go to the beach bar and bring back two beers...emptied the contents, I kept a beer bottle in back pocket and one in hand until AA got me out of there the next morning.

    So I do not look for trouble. In another life I had to be more careful than I am now. Enough stuff "can" and "does" happen in everyday activities. I sure do not go out of my way looking for trouble.

    Do I go out ? Sure. I was with folks at a Live Theatre , we all CCW. Now the anti Instructor , and anti student - I had the previous semester was flat scared to go to her car. I refused to walk them out. I reminded them of THEIR views about guns, and CCW. I told them to follow what she preached, hug that cellphone, and hug it while she submitted- yes I walked off. I was very tacky, I even suggested that maybe they should flip a coin as to who went first on getting raped.

    They made to her car, after pleading and begging Theatre Security to walk them out. The anti classmate contacted me, she wanted to learn to shoot, and get her CCW. " This Motorola cell phone is not very comforting". Good grief, common sense from a liberal, I damn near had a heart attack.

    Another Great Example is Susan Gratia Hupp, she is the Dr. who under TX law at the time had to leave her CCW in her vehicle while in Luby's in Killeen , TX.
    Both her parents died that day, along with many others when the gunshots rang out...

    One never knows the where or when of next encounter - CRSam
    Use Enough Gun

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrshonts
    First of all I apologize for Betty and I bringing our relationship onto this website but she and I talked and thouht it might be a good idea to get everyones thoughts about this situation and I thank you all for it (since I am still trying to understand).
    No apology required. We all learn by these questions. I can't think of much to add, to convince you that hasn't already been said except to ask you a simple question. Can you accept the idea of her being abducted, injured or killed so you can go places you cannot carry or otherwise protect her? I, personally, could not live with the idea that I was unprepared to protect my wife, should a "situation" develop, so the answer to my own question is, obviously, "No". Does that mean I always carry my gun with me or we don't go places I can't carry? No, but I will carry some type of weapon (or something that can be used as one) on me when we are together. A BG threatening my wife in some way while I am near will get them in a fight for their life real quick. If she is ever attacked, I will be dead first or soon after.
    Bumper
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  10. #10
    Member Array mrshonts's Avatar
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    I understand your view points and respect them as well but to me it still leaves an unanswered question, why miss out on things in your life you can enjoy just so you can carry? I love to travel and I want to share that with Betty but this problem will get in the way of my dream if we don't at least find some middle ground between us.

    I am not trying to start an arguement here so please don't misunderstand me, all I want to do is understand a little better. I have thought about it and have no problem with Betty wanting to carry to a state that goes along with the TN CCW laws. If she wants to pack it up and check it on the plane to carry around town that is fine with me but still my problem is her unwillingness to travel to states that do not recognize the TN CCW laws. Yes, I understand that things might happen without warning or the complete opposite and nothing will happen. I suppose I still don't quite understand why some folks are willing to miss out on life for the sake of carrying a gun 24/7.

    Part of this to might be the fact that I'm a 6' 250 pound guy who has had nothing happen to that I could not use my hands for. I am hoping at the very least that I can find some middle ground with her and understand a little better where she is coming from. I respect her viewpoints on life but suppose I am a bit hard headed when trying to understand something like this, so anymore thoughts or advice are welcome!

    If anyone has a question they have for me to better understand my thinking process please ask!

  11. #11
    Member Array K-Man's Avatar
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    mrshonts,

    I understand your desire to want to take Betty to see all the things there are to see in our world.

    But here's a scenario that I think is a real possibility. Let's say you're driving down the road on your way to visit some place, time of day doesn't matter. You decide to stop at an ATM machine to grab some cash. Betty's sitting in the car waiting. While you're keying and drawing out the money, a person walks up behind you and pulls a gun in an attempt to rob you. Betty can see this occur from where she sits. You don't know how large this person is, all you can feel is the cold steel on the back of your neck. Most likely if you make any move, other than handing over the cash, the gun's going to go off.

    Perhaps you practice situational awareness - always aware of what's going on around you. My experience has been that folks in your physical stature don't. As you say, you feel you can handle and take care of the situation by brute strength.

    But if Betty has the means/guns to defend you and take control of the above situation, wouldn't you want that instead? If you're in an area where they don't allow ccw, then all she can do is watch, most likely in horror, as this situation occurs. Perhaps you get shot - now she's got to deal with that in addition to. Would you want her to experience that? I know my wife would be royally pissed at me, especially if I'm still around and kickin.

    Here's another scenario. Let's say you stop at a 7/11 store to grab something to snack on and drink while on this road trip. When you come out of the door, with your hands full, a person pulls a gun on you to rob you. You've got your hands full, what are you going to do? If you make any moves that the perp sees as aggressive, he'll shoot you. Again, Betty is having to watch this from her seat in the car, not being able to do much.

    These types of robberies happen every day in our nation. Yes, they happen even in states with ccw laws. But why limit yours or Betty's ability to protect either yourself or someone you care for.

    Or let's go one step further and completely turn this around and reverse the roles. How would you feel if you were the one with the CCW and Betty was without, and you had to experience the above scenarios? I'm sure you realize life is full of compromises. I know I would much rather have the every day experiences with some one I care for. If that means I'm somewhat limited in where I can travel and the things we get to see - so be it. But it's significantly more important to me to be with a person I care about and be able to protect us as much as I can. And who knows, as time goes on, these other states may come on board with a reciprocal or their own ccw laws. Then you can go and visit these places without concern.

    Just my $.02.

  12. #12
    Member Array mrshonts's Avatar
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    I can think of a thousand different situations that something bad might happen to me in life but why walk around worrying about things that "might" happen rather than walk around life enjoying it to the fullest. I know what your trying to say but don't get me wrong here, why do I want to walk around life thinking of a thousand different ways that things might happen rather than walk around enjoying it? I'm the type of person to not let things get in the way of living my life and if it means walking around a city unarmed then so be it. I'm not going to worry myself with things that might happen or could happen, rather I am going to look at life with the fullest intentions of enjoying it the most that I can. I just want to enjoy these same fellings with Betty so we can experience everything in life rather than look back on our lives when were old and grey saying, I wish we would have gone to this city or that, or gone to this country or that. Why sell ourselves short from life when there are so many good things to experience from it?

    Just my own humble thoughts......or maybe I'm just too hard headed to see

  13. #13
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    Look at it this way mrshonts:

    There's a lot to go see and do out there. Why place yourself in a position where you have to go somewhere where your personal security is compromised?

    Yes sometimes in life you just have to. You don't have a choice. And yes sometimes there's something more important to you than having your gun within reach.

    In my priority system my career trumps my desire to carry. This is because of unfortunate laws and I'm not 100% sure I'd carry at my job anyway, but I think I would try to make it work somehow if it were legal. This is simply a circumstance I cannot control.

    However traveling is a situation, for me at least, where the desire to carry is higher on my priority list. I have to do some traveling around Texas this summer in some places I'd rather not go, and I plan on being aware and being armed. My traveling is a situation I can control so I make it the best situation possible.

  14. #14
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    Love,
    We also go about our lives enjoying things to the fullest. Because we don't go to certain places because of carry laws does not mean we are not enjoying life to the fullest. We just make alternate plans that are just as enjoyable.

    I know you know this isn't Disneyland and there are dangers out there, which is why you are getting your carry permit. I also know it's hard seeing things from our perspective because we're armed, have been armed for some time, and some of us have already had things happen to us. It's hard stepping into someone else's shoes, but please try.

    Please don't take this the wrong way; I've been trying to figure out how to word this so it doesn't come out harsh. My sister-in-law is a very good shooter, has a carry permit, but does not carry. She is the mother of my two beautiful nieces. She's a good mom, but lives in condition white. I know when my brother is around, he can protect his family. My sister-in-law, on the other hand, I consider a liability. I would defend my nieces with my life, but I'd prefer to use some good awareness and some bullets if need be.

    You're asking me to risk going unarmed to places I don't want to go. You're asking me to limit myself to relying on what's between my ears (and situational awareness only goes so far) and weapons at hand that may or may not be available. You're asking me to rely on you for protection. Do you have the ability to defend me with your life? I love you, you're the most wonderful man I've ever met, and you're a big guy and much stronger than me, but even your superior size and strength is limited. The answer is no, you do not have the ability to defend me with your life. So please, don't try to take the ability to defend myself out of my hands, all for the sake of enjoying a vacation that we can both enjoy elsewhere, in a location that recognizes my right to defend myself.

    I also know that if I were unarmed and something did happen to either one of us, I would be devastated. I would be angry and upset and unforgiving - at myself for being unarmed when I knew better, and at you, for asking that I go unarmed. I don't want that between us.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  15. #15
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    Here's my insight MrShonts...

    The difference in your attitude and Betty's is because of the differences in your gender, physique, and experiences.

    Most males your age still think that they're gonna live forever and that nothing will happen to them. You may THINK that "intellectually" you know that bad stuff can happen, but you really don't believe it. Society has conditioned guys, expecially larger ones, to feel that there's nothing that they can't handle on their own. Your age, gender, and size gives you an automatic comfort level. This has been subtly reinforced by smaller folks being deferent to you in general, and you aren't even aware of how many times you've been rejected as a target by a potential attacker because of your age/size/gender. Life has done nothing to change that, so far.

    Betty, on the other hand, sees herself as potential prey. Her size, the physical problems she's described with her back, and life experiences have taught her that she's not immortal, and can't automatically depend upon the good graces of everyone she meets. She knows that she can't even win a footrace against a young male adversary. As a young attractive female she has a whole set of issues to deal with that you've never encountered. Experience has taught her that she's a target for predators, or just unwanted attention.

    I'm not gonna offer "relationship advice" or take a position as to who's right and who's wrong...you two have to figure that out for yourselves. I'm just trying to point out the origins of the differences in your attitudes so that you guys can work from a common frame of reference. I think you're both nice folks, and I hope things work out for you the way you want them to.
    If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes.

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