Might this be an accurate assessment?

Might this be an accurate assessment?

This is a discussion on Might this be an accurate assessment? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thinking of Euc's thread on the WalMart meathead - got to me to wondering whether he (meathead) was, perhaps, on something? Maybe just steroids in ...

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  1. #1
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    Might this be an accurate assessment?

    Thinking of Euc's thread on the WalMart meathead - got to me to wondering whether he (meathead) was, perhaps, on something? Maybe just steroids in his case but - more and more I tend to think that the majority of BG's are - on - something.

    I accept too there is just plain evil in some BG's but overall, much of what I see, read, and hear about does lead me to believe that ''stuff'' is behind a lot of BG actions, the majority? - perhaps the most obvious conclusion in many cases, is simply that they want your money because they ''need'' more stuff. Most unlikely too there are many holding down (dirty word coming) - work!!!!

    What then can we say then about the effects of various dopes?? Be interested to hear your views.

    As I see it - weed will mainly make guys more or less inebriated, spaced out, whatever. Bit like alcohol? Accentuated risk? Maybe depends on underlying psyche?

    Cocaine ... hmmm - maybe not an aggression drug but sure as heck, drives them to get more - any which way, any how.

    Smack? - not sure here - again that evil dependence-driven urge to finance the next hit - but I imagine those guys will be less of a threat re speed etc.

    PCP? - serious I seem to remember - hard to stop - they will be out to do - whatever - at all costs and to hell with consequences.

    Meth? - probably they will be illogical, and again spaced out but - danger factor? Not sure.

    The steroids? - I hear much about the effects being to promote aggression - true?

    Have I left out anything?

    Bottom line the way I think is - chances are if we do come up against an inescapable BG scenario, we'd best assume they are not in the normal sense of the word ''compos mentis'' and assume that rational discussion is possibly not much use - plus if they escalate any threat then we have to probably achieve more than one hit for sure.

    Enough ramble - over to you!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


  2. #2
    Member Array rwojcik's Avatar
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    Meathead

    Exactly, as a new CCW holder do we verbally standup for ourselves without escalating the situation or maintaining what dignity we would have left. I have read the thread regarding the instance at Wally World and it appears that ignoring him wasn't going to diffuse the situation but likely to escalate it. I believe it was handled well but still as a CCW holder; are we destined to be verbal abuse punching bags? Whatever the motive, this had the indications of physical contact. I presume any verbal attack will only fuel the fire. I would either say the BG is just trying to bully someone or just attempting to compensate for less than satisfactory tooling. Can't really say there was any dependancy driven motives but being in any check-out line doesn't give a lot of room for escape nor keeping in your own personal space.

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Lets make it alot worse. Your in the line with your wife and your 10 year old daughter. He/they start calling you alot worse than George Carlins',7 words that you can't say on TV. He/they also start saying "stuff" about/to your daughter and your wife. Pull out your cellphone and start dialing 911 and what do you think that they would do? If the store employee's call LEO's you know that it will take them 10-15 minutes to arrive. When they arrive on scene with the attitude of"Well,what do you expect us to do?" will the BG's still be there? Will you and your family still be in one piece? What will your wife think about you? Probably worse,what did that encounter do to your daughter????? Can/should you expect the store to protect you? Probably the best that you could do is abandon your shopping cart and make for the mgrs office. You surely wouldn't want to exit the store. --- How much should we have to endure? Law enforcement "can't be everywhere at once". They don't have an obligation to protect us. After they get there they didn't actually see what happened so they can't do anything. Take your friendly LEO aside and ask him these questions and just see what he sez. On the other hand,forget it,we all already know what they will say.---------

  4. #4
    Member Array rwojcik's Avatar
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    Meathead

    Unfortunatly RSSZ; I don't think we have much recourse in these types of situations. I agree that LEO's can't do a whole lot and will likely be there when time permits. They will give it as much attention as a barking dog complaint. Any retaliation on our part will put us at fault and will escalate. Some states say we have the duty to retreat but when boxed in and space in limited supply; we don't have many options. Aside from having a CPL/CCW, we will have to express cowardness to remain within the legal limitations.

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    rwojcik, It is extremely unfortunate----but---------your absolutely RIGHT!! As of Oct.1 this year we here in Fla. do not have the duty to retreat in a public place.(That is already the case in our home or our car.) We can meet force with force. But--- the BG or BG's are doing the above----we still have to meet their (real or precieved) force ONLY with like force. You can't shoot a man for cussin' you to the extreme. Now if he sez "I got a gun under my coat and I'm gonna pull it out and shoot you" and starts reaching up under his coat,that's a different ballgame. But we all know that it will never be that simple. Us CCWers have to walk a very fine line. Tip over either way, and us and our families are toast. To be sure,it's a sad situation.---------

  6. #6
    Member Array rwojcik's Avatar
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    Why is it that it is the Law abiding that actually get shafted when it comes to the rules? IMHO; lawmakers are creating laws that are based or derived from fears. much like Salem and witchhunts. You would think that we as (civilized species) should have evolved behond the point of fears and fairytales and start basing on fact or studies. Too many politicians still believing in Santa Clause I guess!

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    I dunno, Chris. Some folks are just angry. Some just don't care. While I agree that anyone who persists in anti-social behavior has a problem, I don't think you can generalize that most are on drugs. Their problems could be emotional or even organic. The guy in Euc's post sounded like a guy who'd had just enough alcohol to go mean.

    The effects of most drugs are significantly affected by the taker's mood, location, and state of mind, so the reaction tends to be filtered individually. In the cases of most of the drugs you mentioned, except for the long-lasting hallucinogens, it would probably be more accurate to say that most drug-using BG's are off something. Some may take drugs just before committing a crime to help pump themselves up, but I don't think it would be accurate to ascribe their criminal behavior to the drugs.

    Weed is a depressant, and its effects do indeed depend on the user. Just like there are mean drunks, there are mean potheads.

    Cocaine is a stimulant, producing a brief high followed by a depression and desire for more. Depending on the user's state of mind, it can produce aggression or (more likely) bolster existing aggression during the stimulant phase of the reaction.

    Heroin also causes euphoria followed by depression. People who are actually "on" smack aren't capable of doing much. The problems happen when they come down.

    PCP is an anesthetic with hallucinogenic properties. It is a long-term drug with side effects that can last for months. The degree of effect depends on the method of administration. Phencyclidine causes a person's sense of time and space to alter, as well as their perception of others. They stop being able to process and interpret expressions in the faces and body language of others, and become hostile and threatened. They lose sensation of pain and frequently cause themselves bodily harm, as they push their bones and joints past the point of failure in their drug-induced visions.

    Meth is highly addictive. Meth also amplifies bipolar behavior. People with underlying problems who take meth can quickly lose control.

    Steroids cause a variety of problems including aggression in some.

    There are a lot of drugs you didn't mention, like ecstacy or mushrooms or peyote or mescaline, or any of a dozen designer drugs out there.

    As to your bottom line, it may be true that the BG isn't in his right mind, but I don't think one should ever rule out rational discourse, entirely, or assume that an appeal to rational thought will not be worth the effort.
    - Tom
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  8. #8
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    Thx guys and Tom in particular. I guess maybe I was, at time of posting the thread starter - painting with rather a large brush! I do tho still get the feeling that a very significant (shall we say) number of BG's are in some way ''loaded'' - or coming down too maybe. Just my perception - tho I daresay too I am ever trying to dig inside the BG mindset anways - trying to discover what might ''make them tick''.

    Reason for all this is that old adage ''know thine enemy'' - because the more we can understand (maybe near impossible of course) the mind set involved then perhaps the better equipped we may be should something go down.

    I still also tho have the feeling that a great many BG's might not be worth any verbal discourse - drugs or no - simply because there is something in their make up which keeps them in another division of homo sapiens - maybe even a different genus entirely!!

    Sure as heck - they ain't like us!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  9. #9
    Member Array JAXFL's Avatar
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    So what?

    So what if I do or do not have a CCW. If as stated in the Wally World case, the BG's all 50 of them with their Hells Angles colors flying and their voices loud, yelliing at me for whatever reason, I cannot shoot them, I cannot hit one of them. If I do either I go to jail not them. So what difference does having the CCW and the Gun do? If they don't touch me or show a weapon I must coward and try to avoid verbal harm to me and mine... Having the gun and the CCW only helps if there is physical harm involved. Just my thoughts, I still have to call 911 or the store manager for assistance and hope they just keep cool.

  10. #10
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    Jax - sadly you are right. The difference tho with having the CCW is, that IF things should escalate and you are under real threat, not just verbal - you do have the final sanction.

    Think on it too - it would hardly be well accepted (well, the anti's would love it!) if we were freely able to blast away at folks just because they are irritating the **** out of us!

    Being able to ''bite the bullet'' has a rather special meaning when we carry - it means in part at least we have to let our ego's get bruised sometimes.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    Two choices - ignore the BG until such time as he threatens you with bodily harm or touches you or your family members. At that time he has committed assault or battery respectively and can be arrested. Or you can go over and tell said BG what you think of him, his ancestors and his sexual habits, which will probably preciptated the previously mentioned actions.

    But back to the subject of this thread, a lot of criminals are drug users, and usually commit their assualts, thefts, etc., when they are off their drug of choice and need money for their next hit. The exception to this is methamphetamines, which when abused causes acute paranoia (sometimes violent) which can last until the person is detoxed.

  12. #12
    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357
    Some may take drugs just before committing a crime to help pump themselves up, but I don't think it would be accurate to ascribe their criminal behavior to the drugs.

    Meth is highly addictive. Meth also amplifies bipolar behavior. People with underlying problems who take meth can quickly lose control.
    I consider a "speed freak" to be the most dangerous of all the druggies. Someone who snorts or injects meth over a period of time, undergoes psychological changes. They develop agressive, paranoid, anti-social personalities and will do whatever is necessary to find the funds for more fuel. While admitting that some users probably have underlying tendencies toward violent behavior to begin with, I believe that much of the criminal behavior of meth users can be directly linked to the use of meth itself.

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    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    I was a bad youth. I have experience with almost everything on your list, which means I'll never get elected to high office. But seriously, my time hanging out with the vermin of the world taught me one thing: that there are just bad people.

    Bad people are bad people whether on drugs or otherwise. You can't reason with them. You can't argue with them. You can't avoid them 100% of the time.

    What they're on is generally just a reflection of their personality. Drugs may make some more unstable, but the truth is they're unstable from the get go.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  14. #14
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    verbal abuse is still abuse. If you dial 911 and stay on the line , atleast you have a recording of what went on. In my state , swearing is still on the books. If it escalates , well 1 more "witness" for your court case. You cannot reason with BG's , only try to avoid making the situation worse. as for drug use, good luck trying to figure what they are on while they are in your face.

  15. #15
    Member Array JAXFL's Avatar
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    Sorry about that

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tourist
    Let me put that fear to rest.

    I believe the Angels shop at Menard's and The Home Depot. Sears for tools.
    Sorry about that I was just shooting (no pun) for the image :chairshot in the mind of the reader. I know a few and the ones I do know are 2 lawyers and an Accountant (thinking about the professions still doesn't make them good people), anyway the "TITLE" brings up an image and that is all I was after.

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