Sarasota Florida stupidity

This is a discussion on Sarasota Florida stupidity within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'll second the motion to take this guys CCW. The author is pretty open on the issue.:::: Concealed gun law is mum on liquid lunch ...

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Thread: Sarasota Florida stupidity

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    Sarasota Florida stupidity

    I'll second the motion to take this guys CCW.
    The author is pretty open on the issue.::::

    Concealed gun law is mum on liquid lunch

    There are some gun rights advocates I hear from whenever they read about a citizen using a gun to thwart a criminal.

    They love those stories. Some especially love it when the good guy has a concealed firearm permit. Such accounts prove that just about everyone who isn't a criminal should carry a gun, they tell me.

    But none have contacted me about the arrest of concealed weapons permit holder Albert H. Rudolph III, who police say pulled a .45-caliber semi-automatic out of his shirt at Patrick's, a downtown Sarasota restaurant.

    Witnesses said Rudolph cocked or "racked" the gun before setting it on the plastic tray his bill had arrived on. Employees later found a bullet that fell to the floor.

    This is a case I would submit as evidence that some people who now carry firearms legally in Florida most certainly should not. It also shows a problem with Florida's concealed weapons law.

    Rudolph, 75, wasn't trying to thwart a crime when he pulled his gun. He later told police he was just trying to get his gun out of the way so he could reach his wallet.

    I don't doubt it, but Sarasota police Capt. Stan Duncan says the man's actions led a lot of people to put down their club sandwiches and wish they were somewhere else.

    Police said Rudolph had downed four alcoholic drinks with his lunch. Though he says he didn't mean to frighten anybody, anyone drunk or stupid enough not to realize the effect such a gun display would have lacks a grasp of responsible handling of a firearm.

    Rudolph may lose his permit to carry a concealed weapon, because it was illegal to turn his gun into an unconcealed firearm in that public place. Some alcohol-related counseling seems like a fine idea, too.

    But when Capt. Duncan told a Herald-Tribune reporter last week it was illegal for the man and his gun to even be in that restaurant because alcohol is served there, he was overstating the case.

    Florida's concealed firearm statute bans permit holders from carrying weapons into schools and courthouses and quite a few other places, including bars. But it is legal to have a concealed gun in a restaurant that serves alcohol, except in the area primarily devoted to alcohol.

    And nothing in the statute clearly bans drinking in a public place while carrying a gun.

    The man seems to have crossed a clear legal line only when he flashed that gun. But being armed while downing the liquid lunch that enables such bad judgment?

    That's not mentioned in the statute.
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

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  3. #2
    Member Array 1911packer's Avatar
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    Idiots like that can cause problems for all of us. As I was taught in the Boy Scouts, gunpowder and alcohol don't mix.

  4. #3
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    Unbelievably stupid - and yes most of all - that kinda action sours the relatively good name of CCW.

    Total idiot.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  5. #4
    Ex Member Array glocksandkahrs's Avatar
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    Stupid, yes, but at the ripe old age of 75, he may be losing his mental faculties. And, therefore, should not be carrying anyway...

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Their argument, I guess, is that the law that allows concealed carry should have stipulations about alcohol consumption while carrying. That's a very debatable point, I am sure. Since I don't drink, it doesn't concern me, but I still have not made up my mind about it. My initial reaction is to say that there should be a limit, like the legal limit for driving after drinking; but then, just like with driving, you are going to have people who go past the legal point because they are the only ones in charge of making sure they don't. Then you have a violation. No law provides a means to keep people from breaking it. The law just provides a framework for what's allowed, and what you will be punished for doing once you've done it.

  7. #6
    Ex Member Array glocksandkahrs's Avatar
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    The problem when people compare carrying a firearm while drinking to driving an automobile after drinking is like apples to oranges.

    Self-defense is a right, while driving is not. DUI is pretty simple. If you're over the limit, pay the price. But self-defense? .04-.08 is pretty easy to get to very quickly. Two beers in under an hour can put people over the limit, but should they forfeit the right to defend themselves and families? I don't think it should be illegal and most CCWers would use common sense and not be out falling down drunk while armed. But, people need to be aware that alcohol WILL be a factor in the legal arenas.

    I drink at home (not to excess, usually ) and carry a CC pistol. It's on me all day and I don't take it off when I get home. Now, should I be prosecuted because I dropped some hostile invaders because I didn't lock my gun up after a few drinks or wine with dinner? After all, it would be a hostile, forced entry because I keep all the doors and first story windows shut and locked. Alarm system always armed, too. If they're in my house uninvited, it damn sure well isn't a mistake!

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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Ok, to critique his actions, first of all, ahhh heck, just take his permit.

    Agreed, he is an idiot.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Seems to me the law worked. He did something stupid and will probably loose his permit for it. We cannot be banned from having a permit for something we "might" do in the future, only for what we have already done. That would be going back to the old system where the police, who never make a mistake, judge who should and who should not carry. We don't want that. Nobody that I know ever claimed CCW permit holders will never break the law, only that we are as a group some of the most trustworthy people around. In MN you are even allowed to have a drink while carrying. I don't advocate this but it is legal. There have been zero problems as a result even though this was thought to be a terrible thing when the law was enacted.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    The Idiot ILLEGALLY DISPLAYED A FIREARM that is a first degree felony. The carrying while intoxicated has nothing to do with it.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  11. #10
    Ex Member Array glocksandkahrs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    Seems to me the law worked. He did something stupid and will probably loose his permit for it.
    Exactly. I agree 100%.

    I wonder if it was stupidity, senility or the alcohol that caused him to pull a firearm out in an obviously NO open carry state. Probably a combination of all three factors, but we'll never know what he would have done if he'd not been drinking.

    Now, would anyone here be harder on the guy if he hadn't done this, but had to defend himself in the parking lot against multiple younger assailants, possibly armed, trying to rob/carjack him just because he'd been drinking?

    I wouldn't if the shoot was otherwise justified because, as I said above, I don't think you give up your right to self-defense against potentially lethal force (guy's 75 and that's old in my book ) just because of a few drinks. Not to say he won't have extenuating circumstances because of drinking, but it shouldn't be "blanket illegal", especially if the shoot is criminally determined as justifiable.

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Several people have commented on this fellows advanced age. You don't lose your right to self-protection just because you get older. As a matter of fact you may need that gun more than a 21 year old that can run away from trouble. Remember, with luck we will all live long enough to be considered "old" someday. Some may consider me old right now. I had a 70+ year old woman as a student once and she did just fine. Should I have told here she is too old to be using a gun? She'd have hit me with it and I would have deserved it.

    Another quick observation is that we all seem to feel so terrible when a CC permit holder does something illegal or dumb. It doesn't reflect on me, why do you feel it reflects on you? Nobody ever said we were perfect just as a group far more law-abiding than most and this can be proven. If we weren't stories like this wouldn't make the news because they would be everyday occurrences. What I like to see is that the law handled the situation as it should.
    Last edited by havegunjoe; September 11th, 2007 at 09:52 PM.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  13. #12
    Ex Member Array glocksandkahrs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    Several people have commented on this fellows advanced age. You don't loose your right to self-protection just because you get older. As a matter of fact you may need that gun more than a 21 year old that can run away from trouble. Remember, with luck we will all live long enough to be considered "old" someday. Some may consider me old right now. I had a 70+ year old woman as a student once and she did just fine. Should I have told here she is too old to be using a gun? She'd have hit me with it and I would have deserved it.
    Yeah, I was the one who brought up the advanced age thing. Alcohol or not, if he's becoming senile or something, he probably shouldn't be carrying. His family could probably get his permit revoked legally (FL will probably revoke it anyway) like they can do with a driver's license. Still, that might not stop him from carrying or driving, but...it might.

    More on topic to the original premise was the fact that he'd been drinking and should it be made illegal or not to carry when doing so. If in moderation, I say no because I do not give up the right to defend myself and neither should anyone else. But don't be stupid (i.e. flat out drunk), either.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array joleary223's Avatar
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    The fact of the matter is, He screwed up. It doesn't matter why or if he is 21 or 101. When you get a licence it is your responsibility to know the law and abide by it, if you don't, you lose the privilege. Too bad he wasn't smarter, if he is lucky he will just lose his licence and still be able to car carry.
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    Take it easy......ya'll are going to get "moderated".

    We're in a sensitive area when discussing senior age vs CCW, it's the same sensitive area in discussing senior age vs drivers licenses.

    How about let's just leave it like this, that there are some young folks, who are of age, but probably too immature to have a drivers license or CCW, likewise there are probably some older folks who are too mature to have a drivers license or CCW. Those examples really can't be remedied here on this forum, though in my experience they are best handled by close family members and/or their physician. It is an individual by individual decision.

    PS-Agreed the older guy definitely used poor judgment, though I don't know if it was age-related. Sadly he does fall in an age group where he certainly could need his CCW, and he may have jeopardized it.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    Member Array 1911NM's Avatar
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    Growing old ain't for sissies, but there comes a time in everyone's life where maybe they shouldn't have a drivers license, or a CCW permit anymore. Sad, but reality.
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