Utah says "No More" to Permits for Foreigners

[Janq]

If there's no way to do a background check, how can a permit be issued? Would anyone here sanction the issuance of permits to the terrorists who brought us 9-11?

As based on obvious results and confirmed information, terrorists don't need guns nor carry permits to do their job to a functional level.
As well they are not likely to go through the review toward securing one. Why when they can simply like any other criminal just carry it on their person without the legal hassle and fingerprinting?

Meanwhile the 9-11 terrorists carried box cutters.
I can buy those buy the box with no permit from my local CVS, grocer, WalMart, or hardware store.
Permits slow down and keep in check good legal people, who submit themselves to such pain as opposed to just carry concealed with no permit and call it a day.



- Janq

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[SubNine]

That's interesting information to know, as I don't know much about what it takes to become a US citizen. I ama natural born citizen myself. I believe every human being has the right to self defense, regardless of national origin, but at the same time I want to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't own them. I guess you have to make a sacrifice somewhere. It's a complicated situation IMO.

[PaulG]

That's interesting information to know, as I don't know much about what it takes to become a US citizen. I ama natural born citizen myself. I believe every human being has the right to self defense, regardless of national origin, but at the same time I want to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't own them. I guess you have to make a sacrifice somewhere. It's a complicated situation IMO.

On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But how does a permit system keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't own them?

If some really WANTs a gun and know that they wouldn't qualify for one, they would simply bypass the permitting process. Does anyone think for a second that they couldn't get a gun illegally no matter what laws are on the books?

Permits and backgrounds checks do absolutely nothing to stop bad guys from getting guns. They simply make good people go thru a lot of red tape before the government "blesses" us with its permission to exercise a right it has no moral right to deny!

[bearcreek]

Utah has been swamped by out of state and Canadian applications. It is commonly taking up to 5 months there now. I think they just decided it was too much work and picked the foreign ones out as a way to cut the workload. It's too bad, but it's still much more liberal as far as CCW laws than most states. For what it's worth, most of the states that recognize Utah permits allow car carry. Ironic that one that does not is Utah.

[SubNine]

That is true, but what can you do? Criminals have been around since the dawn of mankind, and all we can do is do our best to fight back. I believe if every state adopted Vermont's and Alaska's carry laws, we very well may see a drop in violent crime. Many people still aren't aware that you can legally carry a gun in many states, and our society as a whole adopted the belief that the wild west days are over, and people don't need to carry guns anymore, and that it is the police who will protect us. You can't get rid of crime entirely by letting people carry guns, but it can certainly help lower it.

[Miggy]

"Utah had become the state of choice for people who did not live in the United States but wanted to carry a gun in the country,"

The way I read it is that they are not even residents of the USA. If that is so, I do have to support the measure.

[DOGOFWAR01]

2A - USA Citizen carry only in the USA with or without a permit and open or concealed - anytime - anywhere - anything !

If visitors to the USA or those "earning" their Citizen in the USA cannot accept this then go somewhere else.

Note: 2 Amendment - No permit - No training - No etc required for an USA Citizen.

Note: The U.S. Constitution makes no mention of non-citizens just saying citizen can.

Note: We USA Citizens cannot do what is asked in this discussion in other countries nor can the citizens or subjects of those countries do what is asked in this discussion even in their own country.

[P7fanatic]

I don't fear a terrorist with a gun nearly as much as I fear a government who will restrict law abiding citizens from exercising their RIGHT to defend themselves.

Agreed. The important clarification here being 'law abiding citizen'.

[SleepingZ]

I don't have much of a problem with the change, if Canada won't trust me to take a handgun in their country, and the citizens of Canada have not done anything to get that changed, why would we want to give them the same rights we have here.

[pmt]

I don't have much of a problem with the change, if Canada won't trust me to take a handgun in their country, and the citizens of Canada have not done anything to get that changed, why would we want to give them the same rights we have here.

Umm, you mean the right to defend ourselves? Why wouldn't you allow me that when visiting your country? If I were a BG I would simply carry without a permit.
It's not that Canada doesn't trust you, our leaders simply deny everyone the tools necessary to defend ourselves. Carry permits do exist in Canada, but are rarely issued.

We are doing something to get that changed. Applying for, and receiving a Utah, NH, & PA permits is one small way of showing our government that the streets won't be painted red with blood if law abiding people are carrying. Notice I said 'people' as citizenship shouldn't matter. It doesn't matter to the BG trying to do you or me harm. The firearms community is continually writing to our local & federal politicians urging them to make good on their promise of scrapping the firearms registry. We've had representatives from the NRA here speaking to various groups. We encourage all gun owners in Canada to become more active in our fight. It's a long hard battle. Please don't dismiss us too quickly.

[SleepingZ]

pmt: You may be right, I should be directing my anger towards Canada Gvmt, not the citizens, which may be fine people.

[SammyIamToday]

If there's no way to do a background check, how can a permit be issued? Would anyone here sanction the issuance of permits to the terrorists who brought us 9-11?

I would. I don't think they should even have permits. Let everyone carry that wants to. I don't understand how gun owners can in one breath say that criminals will get them anyway if they want to and in the next breath call for some kind of restrictions against criminals that they won't follow anyway. However, these new restrictions still end up restricting people that aren't bad people. Like Canadians that want to be able to carry a gun in parts of the US.

But hey, maybe I'm just not falling for the culture of fear correctly...

[nicneufeld]

You guys had me going there for a second, my breathing quickened...I thought they were going to stop renewing non-resident US citizen permits! I don't live in Utah but I have their permit, just because it is so much less expensive than my state's permit.

[PrairieMedic]

- To own a handgun in Canada is very rare, if you have one, you're not likely to be a dangerous wingnut. We have so many hoops to jump through, most can't be bothered. We fight day and night working towards the freedoms that you have. I for one am not willing to toss that away. Most border guards are amazed to see a Canadian with a handgun coming across. Our laws are a pain in the ***, and only setup to discourage us.

- To get across the border i'm searched, and my RCMP file is checked plus NICS & fingerprints are on file. My car is gone over completely, as well as my firearms. I've given up the privacy of my records to be afforded extra privledge. This happens every time I go across. No exceptions. That's a monthly wingnut checkup if you ask me.

[BushidoMarine]

I guess visitors from other countries don't have a God given right to self defense.

My personal view is that even requiring permits from the government to carry a gun is a violation of the 2nd Amendment and even more than that, a violation of an individual's right as a human being to defend themselves.

Is there anyone on this forum who travels to another country and is happy about having to disarm while there?

I don't look at this as a positive move at all.

Exactly. Those of you who support this should try being a "foreigner" for awhile and tell me how it feels...

Oh wait...I forgot... American criminals never murder non-citizens