Utah says "No More" to Permits for Foreigners - Page 3

Utah says "No More" to Permits for Foreigners

This is a discussion on Utah says "No More" to Permits for Foreigners within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am happy to see good discussion on this topic. What started this entire problem with Utah was when an instructor wanted to do a ...

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  1. #31
    New Member Array SandRoad's Avatar
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    I am happy to see good discussion on this topic.

    What started this entire problem with Utah was when an instructor wanted to do a course in Israel. It is because they felt they couldn't get a good criminal record check from there.

    One of the requirements for Canadians to get a Utah CCW (at least with the course I took) was to have a Canadian firearms permit. To get the Canadian permit the police do a criminal background check, check your references, need the agreement of your spouse....... really quite an extensive process.

    Canadians have a fight on our hands just to keep what we have, no different than in places in the US like California. It is a familiar tactic to divide and conquer. What if Utah soon decides it is also too much work to issue to out of state, using the precedent of not issuing to out of country? Will everyone be singing the same tune?


  2. #32
    Member Array ibex's Avatar
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    Self-defense is a human right.
    "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."
    - Senator Padmé Amidala, "Revenge of the Sith"

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibex View Post
    Self-defense is a human right.
    The bottom line. ^^
    The 2A does not assign this. It simply recognizes this to be a fact.
    The argument/thought that defense of self is a specific right only for US citizens is false.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #34
    New Member Array contact149's Avatar
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    1st post here guys!

    anyways here in canada owning a gun is a privilage NOT a right it takes months to get a permit to buy a rifle/shotgun to own a handgun you must be a 'collector" or a target shooter you think your 10 day wait for a pistol is bad.....

    to buy a handgun in canada you pay, the store phones in the transfer to the feds the feds approve it ..then it goes to the province you live in they make sure you are a collecter/or target shooter they mail you a transfer approved form AND a ATT form the ATT allows you to transport the pistol from the store to your home ONLY the pistol must be unloaded with a trigger lock on it and locked in a case total time from buying gun to bringing it home up to 2 months lately 3 weeks

    to go the the range you need another ATT allowing you to go to any government approved range in your province straight there and straight home

    We would love it up here if you Americans could carry here we are fighting tooth and nail through just to be allowed to own handguns a few years ago former Prime Minister Paul Martin promised if re-elected to BAN all handguns in canada we were lucky that time..he lost

    take the restrictive laws in CA and time them by 10 to equal the stupid canadian gun laws

  5. #35
    Member Array Omni's Avatar
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    I am a Canadian with a Utah CCW permit. I lived legally in the United States for years, but currently reside in Canada. Presumably, the State of Utah has changed its mind and does not intend to let me renew my permit when it expires. The impending denial of my CCW renewal comes despite the fact that I have no criminal history whatsoever: not even a minor blip during my years of youthful exuberance.

    By the way, any statements by Utah BCI to the effect that they can't do an adequate background check on me is false. Canada's criminal database is completely accessible to U.S. authorities through a reciprocal agreement, and Utah BCI knows this. Truth be told, if the Utah BCI would dare to tell it, is that the hundreds of Canadians with Utah CCW permits all have exemplary records and are exceptionally law abiding people.

    So, the question is: if I'm traveling in America, as I enjoy doing, and some thug or drug addict threatens my life, should I be denied the right to protect myself? There have been examples of Canadian tourists being targeted by criminals, since they are deemed less likely to be armed. Do the powers that be want to guarantee criminals that my family and I are unarmed and vulnerable?

    As a Canadian I do my bit to stand up for gun rights. Not only do I do this in Canada, but I'm also a member of the NRA. I belong to the NRA because I am a firm believer that people who support gun rights and personal liberties need to band together and present a united front. I hope people reading this thread will consider standing up for self defense and gun rights, and reject the idea that Canadian CCW permit holders are some sort of menace that needs to be eliminated from America.
    "Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities... because it is the quality which guarantees all others." -- Winston Churchill

  6. #36
    Member Array clacky's Avatar
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    I agree that Self-Defense is human right and that everyone should be allowed to carry. Restricting foreignors from carrying handguns in the US only restricts law abiding foreignors from carrying.

  7. #37
    Member Array dhberry's Avatar
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    And then there was the first trip we took in 1988 to visit my wife's family in the Philippines. I asked here about packing my 1911 along in the luggage and was told it was not a very good idea. Turned out to be excellent advise, as it was punishable by death to be found with an unregistered handgun at that time anywhere in the Philippines. You literally took your life in your hands in those post-Marcos days. We arrived in Feb. and there were multiple machine-gun nests set up around Manila Int. Airport and a lot of VERY nervous-looking individuals behind them! My wife, a dedicated shooter and firearms advocate herself, (and a very patient woman) told me on the way from the airport how glad she was that she was now an American citizen! You will never find an American more proud of this nation than she is! Should Utah (or any other state) grant CCW to Canadians (and others) who are found to be responsible and law-abiding? I have no problem with that scenario, as long as the requiremants are no less stringent than we apply to our own citizens. God bless. "Non Illigitimum Carborundum."

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fed View Post
    People, those who object to Utah doing away with the issuance of permits to foreigners, I only have three words: Are you nuts?

    Try to get a permit as a resident, let alone a non-resident in any other country. Why are your hearts bleeding for them? If you want to take up a cause, write your congresspeople and ask them to support national carry.

    You want to help foreign tourists? Offer to be their tour guide and bodyguard. Put some of those Euros in American pockets.
    I guess I am nuts!

    I just don't believe in telling another human being that I don't care about their God given right to self defense because their leaders don't care about mine.

    It should be legal for EVERYONE to carry a gun.

    The bad guys do regardless of our stupid laws.

    Why do you want to penalize good people just because they come from another country?

    If the SHTF, I hope everyone around is armed and able to help out.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  9. #39
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    I guess I'm nuts too!

    I am yet another one of the 1000 or so Canadians that have received a Utah permit. I also carry non-res permits from PA, Maine, and NH. The previous posters are all correct. Your law enforcement services can access our CPIC system the same way ours can access your NCIC. My prints are on file with FBI from my Utah application, and I had to send an RCMP criminal (or lack thereof) history for another one of my permits. Getting a Canadian firearms licence and then a handgun LEGALLY here is a long drawn out process.
    I and others are pushing for the same "rights" you guys (and gals) down south take for granted. We have no 2A, and no major lobby like the NRA to help us (yes, I'm a member anyway).
    So cut us some slack. We're children of a common mother (saw that one on a border sign) and partners in Nafta, Norad, and Nato. Our guys are on the ground with your guys in Afghanistan. We should all be on the same side with this one.
    CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

  10. #40
    Member Array xd.40sub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyBunny View Post
    I am yet another one of the 1000 or so Canadians that have received a Utah permit. I also carry non-res permits from PA, Maine, and NH. The previous posters are all correct. Your law enforcement services can access our CPIC system the same way ours can access your NCIC. My prints are on file with FBI from my Utah application, and I had to send an RCMP criminal (or lack thereof) history for another one of my permits. Getting a Canadian firearms licence and then a handgun LEGALLY here is a long drawn out process.
    I and others are pushing for the same "rights" you guys (and gals) down south take for granted. We have no 2A, and no major lobby like the NRA to help us (yes, I'm a member anyway).
    So cut us some slack. We're children of a common mother (saw that one on a border sign) and partners in Nafta, Norad, and Nato. Our guys are on the ground with your guys in Afghanistan. We should all be on the same side with this one.


    I for one do appreciate having friendly neighbors to the north. and you are more than welcome to come and visit. and when you visit you most definitely deserve the right to defend yourself. I personally believe this is a result of Utah resources being flooded with non resident permits and not being able to keep up with the demand. Have you considered how many people have been trying to get a Utah permit. I hope something can be done to rectify this terrible outcome. I think Utah just needs some help processing all these permits. Keep up the fight in the north as we would all like to protect our selfs when we come there to visit also.
    do what you can with what you have where you are at (theodore roosevelt)

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Antis

    seems to me like we have a bunch of closet anti's here.

    Anti's are generally interested in taking away OTHER PEOPLES guns. Look at all the big ones out there, with their armed protection. Look at Feinstein with her San Fransisco CCW.

    That's how it starts. They always take the guns away from someone else. So, the people not affected think it's 'reasonable'.

    Non citizens today.
    People late paying taxes tomorrow. (hey, you're undermining the strength of the government, ergo the strength of the country)

    What about speeders? If they cant be responsible with a car (a deadly weapon), how can they be responsible with a gun?

    College degree holder only?

    Ex Military only?

    3 gun maximum?

    Class III firearms?

    People convicted of ANY crime (and speeding is a class 3 misdemeanor in Texas)

    People who avoid Jury duty?

    People who don't vote?

    People who dont go to church?

    People who LIVE with anyone who comitted any crime?

    People who have ever had a gun stolen? If you can't look after them.....

    If I thought about it more, I could detail a more gradual path.


    Every one has a right to defend themselves. It has nothing to do with where you happened to be born. unfortunately, some governments don't see it that way. that's not the fault of the visitor. They clearly think the same as everyone here. Thats why they want to carry.

    If you want to take a gun away from an honest law abiding person, you are an anti. Period.

    The second amendment isn't a country club.

  12. #42
    Member Array jlprtr's Avatar
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    Fragman:
    Very well put! These rights are NOT a privilege allowed by The Constitution of the U.S., for only us citizens of the U.S. They are a partial ENUMERATION of universal rights afforded everybody regardless of country of origin or residence the instant they are born.

  13. #43
    Member Array MarkM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    2A - USA Citizen carry only in the USA with or without a permit and open or concealed - anytime - anywhere - anything !

    If visitors to the USA or those "earning" their Citizen in the USA cannot accept this then go somewhere else.

    Note: 2 Amendment - No permit - No training - No etc required for an USA Citizen.

    Note: The U.S. Constitution makes no mention of non-citizens just saying citizen can.

    Note: We USA Citizens cannot do what is asked in this discussion in other countries nor can the citizens or subjects of those countries do what is asked in this discussion even in their own country.
    Hmm, you must be reading a different Constitution then:

    The Second Amendment:

    "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    Not Citizens, People. Why? because the bill of rights does not grant any rights to Citizens, it limits the Federal Government from infringing the existing God given rights of all people.

    But surely our founding fathers meant Citizens when the wrote People, right?

    Wrong: the Constitution makes a clear distinction between Citizens and all People, referring to Citizens only in regards to eligibility for election as Representative, Senator, Vice-President or President and for the right to vote.
    First rule of a gunfight: Carry a gun

  14. #44
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    Al Qeada
    MS 13
    Hezbollah
    Russian Mafia
    Mexican Drug Dealers

    Foreigners that deserve to be given guns without any background checks whatsoever.

    While you are at it, please bring the Poor abused Gitmo prisioners to the Mainland so they can post bail and live in a halfway house near you and open the borders to anybody who wants to come in.

    Imagine any of the above acquiring guns freely and then commiting mass murder. Then imagine that it was found out that they all had permits that DID NOT covered a background check? Lots of foof for the Bradys!
    There HAS to be some sort of way & control. We cannot just give guns to anybody that requests them without covering our back or we will be commiting suicide with our rights. Public backslash would be so great that the Second Amendment would be buried deep and we all end up without guns
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Al Qeada
    MS 13
    Hezbollah
    Russian Mafia
    Mexican Drug Dealers

    Foreigners that deserve to be given guns without any background checks whatsoever.

    While you are at it, please bring the Poor abused Gitmo prisioners to the Mainland so they can post bail and live in a halfway house near you and open the borders to anybody who wants to come in.

    Imagine any of the above acquiring guns freely and then commiting mass murder. Then imagine that it was found out that they all had permits that DID NOT covered a background check? Lots of foof for the Bradys!
    There HAS to be some sort of way & control. We cannot just give guns to anybody that requests them without covering our back or we will be commiting suicide with our rights. Public backslash would be so great that the Second Amendment would be buried deep and we all end up without guns
    The fact is that regardless of whatevery Brady approved, court proofed, feel good rules we put into place, the above mentioned bad guys WILL get the guns they want.

    I also don't think there will be the public backlash you mentioned.

    Look at the various polls after the VT tragedy. The majority got it right. I believe that the American people are not as stupid as the Brady's believe them to be.

    These feel good rules only deprive good people of the right to have a gun.

    I for one don't want to say to good people, "sorry, you can't defend yourself because I'm afraid of Mrs. Brady".
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

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