had an interesting encounter with an LEO... - Page 3

had an interesting encounter with an LEO...

This is a discussion on had an interesting encounter with an LEO... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ron I would like to hear from some of our LEO members and/or criminal attorneys on this. I dont like to offer ...

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Thread: had an interesting encounter with an LEO...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I would like to hear from some of our LEO members and/or criminal attorneys on this. I dont like to offer up my opinion on matters that I am not an expert on. Questions: Did the officer have a right to ask for ID of the passengers? Was the officer's actions questionable relative to how he handled the CCW passenger? And, if so, what did he do wrong?

    Thanks.

    Ron

    Here we go again.

    Yes, The officer has the right to ask for ID from anyone he wishes.
    No, his actions were not questionable relative to how he handled the passenger. Not in the way everyone is thinking anyway.
    The errors I'm talking about are from the OP's account of her perspective of what happened. They were tactical in nature, not legal.
    "Just blame Sixto"


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    Unless required to do so by one's state's law there's no point in blurting out "I have a permit and I'm carrying" anytime you see an LEO. It's as if people think they are doing something wrong, or are suckin' up to the law...and the "officer safety" tune doesn't play, since the law-abiding citizen is not a threat.

    There is absolutely no valid reason to introduce such information into the situation unless required to do so by your state's law.
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyC View Post
    There is absolutely no valid reason to introduce such information into the situation unless required to do so by your state's law.
    Until its come across by circumstance and then you're considered a threat whether you intend on being one or not.

    Thats not what this thread is about though. We have hashed and rehashed this countless times.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    in michigan you are required to tell an officer immediately if you have your cpl. this time it turned out very well because i was able to tell the cop about it without everyone finding out. but i am somewhat worried about this happening again (i do this weekend trip every other week). I am thinking about making myself a card that says something like: "Officer, I am required to inform you that I have a Concealed Pistol License and am carrying today. If possible, I would rather that the other passengers in the car did not know about this. I would be happy to speak with you about it outside the car if necessary. Thank you."

    This I think would be easier if it happens again, i could just hand them the card. what do you think about this? is this a possible solution? any suggestions on wording if so?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    in michigan you are required to tell an officer immediately if you have your cpl. this time it turned out very well because i was able to tell the cop about it without everyone finding out. but i am somewhat worried about this happening again (i do this weekend trip every other week). I am thinking about making myself a card that says something like: "Officer, I am required to inform you that I have a Concealed Pistol License and am carrying today. If possible, I would rather that the other passengers in the car did not know about this. I would be happy to speak with you about it outside the car if necessary. Thank you."

    This I think would be easier if it happens again, i could just hand them the card. what do you think about this? is this a possible solution? any suggestions on wording if so?

    I'd be OK with the "card". The wording should be kept short and sweet, very much like the example you gave.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Sure, it's late, but I'm still asking legitimate questions.

    I want to know why suddenly everyone is apparently ok with cops asking for (demanding?) ID from everyone in the car. And why they're saying this cop did a great job when really the OP could've had the drop on him at any time.

    Sounds to me like a cop on a fishing expedition. There is no cause to run IDs of passengers when there is no suspicious activity. How do I know there was no suspicious activity? Because if there had been, the cop would've had everyone cuffed and searched, because when folk're acting suspicious, there's his probable cause.

    I don't see cause to champion this cop, or give him a written "attaboy" as some are calling it.

    Now, I'm not sure of the law, but I do know that in certain places a CPL holder has to "inform"... But as a back-seat passenger?? I never heard of that. The passenger is not the subject of the stop. There needs to be more discussion of this event, and less okey-dokin' what the participants did.
    PJ, friesepferd is a woman.

    And I can see EXACTLY why a police officer would ask for ID from everyone with two men and a woman in the back seat of a car.

    And I can see EXACTLY why he pulled her out of the car to talk to her privately.

    A woman with one man.. okay. A woman with two men, in the back seat... the officer probably wanted to make sure she wasn't being held in that car against her will (more than likely). Especially when she said she had a gun but didn't want the other passengers in the car to know.

    That told him that she didn't trust these two and raises questions as to why she's in the car with two male strangers.

    I saw some errors in the way he handled things too, but he was looking our for her. You have to give him some credit for that.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    "Officer, I am required to inform you that I have a Concealed Pistol License and am carrying today. If possible, I would rather that the other passengers in the car did not know about this. I would be happy to speak with you about it outside the car if necessary. Thank you."

    [...]

    any suggestions on wording if so?
    Perhaps a little more generic?

    "Officer, I am required to inform you that I have a Concealed Pistol License and am carrying today. If possible, I would rather not disclose this to my associates. I would be happy to speak with you in private. Thank you."

    -john

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Appeals Court Rules That Asking For I.D. Not A Seizure

    A police officer may ask a citizen for identification and use the information garnered from the request, even if the officer has no reasonable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed, according to a ruling from the Sixth Circuit on Thursday.

    So at least according to this Circuit court, the LEO is well within his rights to ask anyone he likes to for identification. I guess if your willing, you can tell him to take a hike, but that isn't something I am willing to do. Whether you "think" your right has no bearing on what the law and legal standing is on an issue.

    Good post, this officer apparently realized that she was one of the good "gals" in this case, and everything went well. Hopefully there isn't a next time, but if there is the link will be made with the DL and there will not be a need to run the concealed carry permit numbers as well.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #39
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Here we go again.

    Yes, The officer has the right to ask for ID from anyone he wishes.
    No, his actions were not questionable relative to how he handled the passenger. Not in the way everyone is thinking anyway.
    The errors I'm talking about are from the OP's account of her perspective of what happened. They were tactical in nature, not legal.
    Thanks, Sixto. I did not intend to impose on you, and I know that similar issues have been discussed before, but I thought that Jeffrey's post called for a knowledgable response.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

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  10. #40
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    AFAIK, what you are obliged to provide (if any) in the form of ID varies by state. As has been suggested, you need to balance what is required of you by law, and what is prudent given the situation.

    Personally, if I was carrying but not legally required to provide photo ID, I would do it anyway and without hesitation or complaint.

    And as Sixto indicates, the LEO can *ask* whatever he or she wants.

    -john

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyC View Post
    Unless required to do so by one's state's law there's no point in blurting out "I have a permit and I'm carrying" anytime you see an LEO. It's as if people think they are doing something wrong, or are suckin' up to the law...and the "officer safety" tune doesn't play, since the law-abiding citizen is not a threat.

    There is absolutely no valid reason to introduce such information into the situation unless required to do so by your state's law.
    I am, and always have been, in full agreement with your statement above. Especially the "suckin' up to the law" part, because that's how I've been receiving the accounts that a lot of people here have been reporting. And I've been trying to put across the point about how "officer safety" is a bogus argument when you yourself know your'e not a threat to the officer. It's as though some folks feel the need to tell the officer, "Hey, I'm armed, so you'd better watch me 'cause there's no telling what I'm gonna do!" I mean, if they were a true threat to the officer, would they warn him about what a threat they were?

    The other aspect of this case was how "well" the officer handled it. Sorry, the officer made an assumption that could've gotten him killed. For one thing, he's putting rear-seat passengers (one of whom was carrying a gun, unbeknownst to him) in a position to start getting nervous, because he wants their ID to run even though they're not the subjects of the stop. Does he have the "right" to do so? Yeah, sure, probably. Should he do so? NO. I think it's an overreach, an abuse.

    It's well understood that most people feel uncomfortable even asserting their basic rights when an officer makes a request. Sure, we can say that they should have just declined to produce the ID, but who has the balls to do that when they know that will be taken as "contempt of cop" and that cop will probably make life difficult for you for a while if you do it? Next thing you know, your assertion of your basic rights is taken as "probable cause," and you are considered to be a "nervous subject" who made the cop suspicious that there were drugs or weapons in the car and BiNGO you're all searched and someone turns up with a tiny roach in his bag and then you're all carted off to jail.

    So the cop is taking advantage of people's fear of crossing the cops, and ends up getting their "permission" to go on his fishing expedition. I consider it to be an abuse of his position when he starts asking passengers for ID.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Appeals Court Rules That Asking For I.D. Not A Seizure

    A police officer may ask a citizen for identification and use the information garnered from the request, even if the officer has no reasonable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed, according to a ruling from the Sixth Circuit on Thursday.

    So at least according to this Circuit court, the LEO is well within his rights to ask anyone he likes to for identification. I guess if your willing, you can tell him to take a hike, but that isn't something I am willing to do. Whether you "think" your right has no bearing on what the law and legal standing is on an issue.
    Well, regardless of whether it's legal for the cop to do, I want to ask you why you said that declining to give your ID is "something [you are] not willing to do". Is it because of what I stated, that even though it's your right, you recognize that the cop might very well hold your assertion of your right against you, and use it as his personal justification for bringing every power that he legally has to bear against you? Even if it's just deciding not to let you go with a warning whereas he might have. Don't try to convince me, people, that cops don't get snippy with civvies who "know their rights," even the ones who assert them politely. I've read too many of those, "Are you gonna try to tell me the law?!" posts.


    Limatunes: Thank you for the clarification. Yours is the one post so far that I feel makes a good case for what the cop did. I appreciate that, and yes, in light of what you said, the events do make more sense.

  13. #43
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    Message deleted...
    Last edited by Team American; October 9th, 2007 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Remove personal attack...
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Limatunes: Thank you for the clarification. Yours is the one post so far that I feel makes a good case for what the cop did. I appreciate that, and yes, in light of what you said, the events do make more sense.
    I thought it might.

    I, too, would have thought it was odd if it was just another guy in a car of guys, but I can understand if it's a woman with two guys.

    Glad I could help shed some light on the issue.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Thanks, Sixto. I did not intend to impose on you, and I know that similar issues have been discussed before, but I thought that Jeffrey's post called for a knowledgable response.

    Ron
    No imposition on me sir. My comment was more general in nature, as every LEO thread turns into this discussion.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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