Gotta Tell ?? Why??
This is a discussion on Gotta Tell ?? Why?? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I do not live in a notification state. However I know enough LEOs in this state to know that your CHP is almost the last ...
June 25th, 2005 06:46 AM
I do not live in a notification state. However I know enough LEOs in this state to know that your CHP is almost the last thing in your computer record and in "equipped" cars they have to scroll to another page to see it. So the LEO at your window may or may not have checked your CHP status. As you lean over to get your registration from the glove box your pistol is exposed. All the LEO knows is they are now dealing with someone who is armed. Say it is also the middle of the night.
The LEOs I know and have asked about this all say it is a courtesy to notify even though it is not required. One flat out didn't care either way. They say it prevents any misunderstanding at the scene. Not all police cars in Virginia are equipped with computers. State Patrol and large metros are all equipped, but sheriffs departments are not always equipped. The cars they put out at night usually are, but during the day possibly not. So your status as a law abiding CHP holder cannot be easily verified before they LEO comes to the window. Also when traveling in a reciprocal state your CHP status may not be immediately available to the LEO. They may have to radio it in and wait for a call back on your status. IIRC that is how it is in VA. For your permit to be recognized here there has to be a way to verify your CHP status 24/7/365.
What we teach in class is this:
Pull over as soon as you can and turn off the vehicle, don't forget to take your foot off the brake.
Keep your hands on the wheel visible (at night turn on the dome light).
Do nothing until the LEO is at the window, they will instruct you how to proceed. You should not try to get your license and registration ready. Wait until the LEO is there and they will ask you to get it out. They don't know what you are doing, other than moving around.
If you are carrying notify the officer that you are and the location of the gun. Especially if you may/will expose it trying to retreive your license and registration. Mr. Glock is not your friend when his barrel is stuck in your left ear.
Under no circumstances should you hang a hand or arm out the window or exit the vehicle unless directed to do so by the LEO. Most running or assault on an officer incidents that start with a traffic stop start this way.
Be honest and courteous at all times. If you give the LEO a hard time, they will look at ways to give you a hard time. Their BS meters are finely tuned so trying to BS them won't help you either.
My last stop for speeding was in excess of 20 over at about 11:30 PM. I followed the advice above which was given to me by a LEO. Everyone was relaxed and I was given a verbal warning to stay at a maximum of 14 mph over and I would be ok. I was not carrying that night so I did not tell them about my permit. The venue we were at was a school and VA had not yet amended their law regarding storage of a firearm on school property.
June 25th, 2005 07:56 AM
Thanks to all for your inputs to my questions. Some things concern me about this. It's what a couple of you have said and things that I have heard about some traffic stops with people and conceled weapons. Just let me say that I have a certin amount of respect for most LEO's and the tough job that they have to do. BUT---- If I am stopped I will not give the LEO any more info than I think that he needs to do his job(the reason that he stopped me). I will not not volunteer any extra info. If I am asked to exit my vechicle I will inform the officer that "Sir,I have a PERMIT to carry a conceled weapon and I have one on my person at this time." I will not ask him what he wants me to do. I feel that he will tell me what his needs are. My specific questions are this. After having informed him of the above does he really think that I am prepared to do him any harm? I don't particularly want the LEO feeling all over me ,reaching up under my clothes,or pulling up my shirt(s) and vest to grab at my weapon that he doesn't know how is removed from my holster. What if I am carrying a 1911 in Cond.1 except that the safety is not engauged.(I don't carry this way but that would be my right should I choose to do so.) Seems that the whole thing about him"having to"(for some unknown to me reason) relieve you of your weapon,take out the magazine,eject the round in the chamber,probably on the ground,(and probably give me a lecture about carrying a live round in the chamber),take my weapon back to his vechicle(and do "God only knows what to it") is unnessary for a officer of the law to do to a presumed innocient man. In post #12 was the officer concerned for his safety? In post #14 the officer wanted a man(that he didn't know to be a GG or a BG) seated in a vechicle to unholster a loaded weapon and hand it to him out the window? ---HUH??--- I understand that LEO's ARE concerned for their safety. They have to deal with some BG's that we only hear about on TV. The worst of the worst. But, there has to be a better way to deal with the honest folks out in our society. Folks like you and me.---------
June 25th, 2005 12:38 PM
Everyone has different ideas of how to handle encounters with a police officer, but I have found that showing them common courtesy during the encounter will make the situation more likely to go your way. This does not mean you have to make any comments admitting guilt to the infraction you have been stopped for. When I am stopped I will volunteer every shred of information that will help me. In most cases, this is also information that will help him. There's nothing wrong with your approach, but IMHO I will receive less citations with my approach.
Originally Posted by RSSZ
The gun was holstered and in a position that the officer could clearly see it. I pointed to it when I informed him. I expect had it been unholstered and sitting on the seat he would have taken possession of it himself.
In post #14 the officer wanted a man (that he didn't know to be a GG or a BG) seated in a vechicle to unholster a loaded weapon and hand it to him out the window? ---HUH??---
There really is no easy solution to this problem. He doesn't know that you are a good guy until the encounter is over.
I understand that LEO's ARE concerned for their safety. They have to deal with some BG's that we only hear about on TV. The worst of the worst. But, there has to be a better way to deal with the honest folks out in our society. Folks like you and me.
Coimhťad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
June 25th, 2005 02:50 PM
My current roommate is a LEO and my other roommates cousin is a LEO. We go do this Happy hour thing every thursday after work with several other LEO's. All are from the same department in Northern Virginia and we have talked about this subject several times. They all have the same opinion. If they pull someone over that is carrying with a carry permit, and that persons is courtious enought to inform them that they are carrying, 9 times out of 10 they will let them off with a warning.....unless you doing somthing crazey like 120 mph in a 55 mph zone. As a side note they are in their late 20's early 30's and all are pro gun RKBA all the way......
......But by the same token there are a few officers in their department that have never touched a firearm before becoming police officers. Their first exposure to firearms was at the police acadamy and they can get real nervous around civilians carrying firearms. This is why it is real important to inform the officer and do what he tells you to do. Let them handle their own issue with being nervous. If you are legal to carry and your firearm is legal then you should have nothing to worry about.
And one more tip they gave me. Do not use the word "GUN" when informing the officer you are carrying. The word GUN in the police world is an alarm word that one officer will yell to warn other officers when he see a gun unexpectly. It's better to use words like "firearm, pistol or I'm carrying".
"EVERYONE is operating with only partial information" :hand27:
Some Wise Guy, USA 2001
June 25th, 2005 03:55 PM
More often than "sometimes" in my experiance. Of course, courtesy and respect probably aint gonna get you out of a ticket if your caught doing 132 in a 70, but for minor things it normally works for me. I've done a lot of research on this...
Originally Posted by MechE
NC requires us to inform. I've never been disarmed while dealing with LE, most of the time they just want to see the permit, sometimes they dont even ask for it, after informing one LEO that I was armed and had a permit, his reply was "So?"
June 25th, 2005 04:15 PM
That is kind of how the officer seamed during my stop. He didn't even look at my permit long enough to read it and he didn't even compare it to my drivers licence. I dropped his name to my LEO friends and they said "We know him, He's cool! He hates doing traffic duty and would rather be serving warrants or doing some SWAT training."
Originally Posted by Zach S
"EVERYONE is operating with only partial information" :hand27:
Some Wise Guy, USA 2001
June 25th, 2005 06:14 PM
Since I got my permit, almost 2 years ago, I've been stopped by LEOs I think 3 or 4 times. First time was DNR police (Dept. of Natural Resources). That was at a DNR range, as I was leaving after finishing a little target practice. They never took my weapons, just checked my ID and that was that.
Second time was Ingham County Sheriff's deputy. I was working 2nd shift, was quite tired, so I pulled into a nearly empty parking lot to rest for about 20 minutes before going home. Deputy was checking out some buildings nearby, spotted my car and came over to check. I did the normal routine, told I had a pistol and permit (not in that order), and explained why I was there. He checked everything out and told me to have a nice day.
Next time was Lansing PD motorcycle cop. He pulled me over. I started to hand him my papers (comrade), at the same time, explaining I have a CPL and a pistol. He said "Ok, do you know why I pulled you over?" Me, "no." He then told me, my recently NEW license plate sticker was the same color as last year's!! Seems someone at SOS screwed up. He thanked me for informing him I was armed, and let it go at that.
June 25th, 2005 10:11 PM
Since I have had my ccw I have had more than one encounter with the police.
#1 = Wreck. May 2004 I was rear ended by a drunk. He was going 55mph easily and witnesses said he never hit his brakes. I was stopped. In the crash my pocket knife and my NAA .22 mag mini revolver came out of my pockets and bounced around the cab of my work van. I informed the local police about my ccw and the fact I couldn't find it afterwards. They never batted an eye, and never asked to see my permit.
#2 I had just put a radiator in my old station wagon, and was in a hurry to get to a get together. In the process, I forgot to tighten the lower radiator hose, and predictably, it popped off on a lonely stretch of highway. A state trooper, stopped and offered me a ride to the gas station to get some water. I informed him of my ccw, and he was fine with it, but requested that I lock it up in my car, which I did.
#3 Speeding ticket. I was on my way home after a 20 hour day, and was literally 15 minutes from the house, when I got caught speeding by the Franklin county Sheriffs Dept. After my previous positive experiences, and knowing that by then, CCW info was supposedly finding it's way onto the info they pull up during a traffic stop, I informed the Deputy. You would think old Barney Fife caught Osama Bin Laden. Not only did he draw on me, (kept it pointed at the ground) and start screaming for me to keep my hands on the wheel (which were already there, and hadn't moved) he demanded that I surrender my weapon. Somewhere during this apoplectic fit of his, he also managed to drop his mag-lite. Once I told him where it was, he took my gun, which he proceeded to try and unload, I eventually had to tell him how to do it. I got a ticket for going 15 over, which I probably was doing, since he was hiding in a gully at the bottom of the steepest grade in 50 miles.
#4 Roadblock. Ironically this was minutes after the speeding ticket. I stopped for a roadblock and had reloaded my pistol, and stuck it in the console, but it wasnít concealed very well. I immediately informed the State trooper, and then cringed. He just grinned and said, ďNo problem, Iíve got one to. He glanced at my paperwork and my permit, and waved me through.
Thus far 75% of the time, the police have been fine with it. The one bad experience was bad enough that I am a bit (pardon the pun) gun shy, about volunteering anything. I still consider it a courtesy, but it is one I doubt I will be extending to the Franklin Co Sherrif's dept in the future.
June 28th, 2005 12:55 AM
In MI you only have to inform the officer that pulls you over if you are actually carrying. Itís plainly written in the law (see packing .org) however most LEOís donít know this and will really hassle you if you donít declare when you are stopped carrying or not. They catch it when they run your license anyway so itís better in the long run to just inform them and know the law cause they sure donít!
livin in the woods...feelin mighty good
June 28th, 2005 03:06 AM
I used to inform. I used to be the good guy who wanted to play by their rules.
Every time I have, I'm the one who gets screwed.
I have no duty to inform, and I won't reveal it unless I'm asked to exit the vehicle or something that would display the weapon somehow.
Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.
June 28th, 2005 09:50 AM
hi rfurtkamp-you live in a state that has maybe 5% of the population registered ccw, thats pretty good. Now here in California we have to lock the gun in a box and seperate it from ammunition and usually locked in the trunk of our car. Also you can only have that gun locked in a container in your trunk during a direct route to say a gun range. Your not allowed to carry that gun like that for no reason, only the bad guys can carry firearms in their cars loaded etc. If stopped for any reason of course you may not lie to the government and if asked do you have any drugs or firearms of course a law abiding person must say yes if going to the range as an example. According to the state of ca the officer for his security and protection will ask to see the gun in your locked case in your trunk, its for his safety to do this.
There are police officers who are shooters and are understanding and then again others may not be. So other than freeway shootings and drive by shootings and the ocassional shooting of police by the BG's we have a safe society out here...yes sir.
As you slide down the banister of life,
May the splinters never point the wrong way.
NRA Life Member
June 28th, 2005 05:04 PM
I always drive the speed limit and stop and stop signs. I never get pulled over. I will, however, inform the officer as a common courtesy if I ever do get pulled over. Gas costs too much to waste it speeding.
July 30th, 2005 07:21 AM
Re: Gotta Tell ?? Why??
While I have very specific opinions on this issue, I will interject only with the following advice about how to notify rather than should you notify. This is because unless it is the law, the decision is yours and the outcome can change based upon your descision and the answers presented.
I am often asked how to handle this situation from students within my training programs.
My response is always to use the following verbage if asked if there are any weapons on you or within the vehicle.
"I have a PERMIT and a pistol which is "Wherever it happens to be". What would you like me to do?
My emphysis is on the word permit, because to say the word gun or pistol during a heightened state of tension could have a negative reaction. By saying permit first, you will actually difuse the situation slightly.
However acting under the assumption that you are not asked directly, and you opt not to notify, but are asked or required to step out from the vehicle, you better notify the officer using the method outlined above and NOT let them find it themselves.
All of this is however based upon the laws of the state in-which you are located.
Bryan S. Williams
Williams Associates Protective Services, LLC
Main Website - www.wa-protective.com
New Book Website - www.wttrw.com
July 30th, 2005 09:24 AM
Ditto here, but when the Sec. of State's office makes a mistake and colors the new tags (the little sticky things that go in the corner/lower middle of the plate) the same as the old, and you don't notice, well, things happen. ;)
Originally Posted by Rickstir
That's how I got stopped once. Just remember, you don't actually have to do anything wrong to get stopped. Sometimes it's just your turn.
July 30th, 2005 10:09 AM
I had similar experience and he seemed to not care. It almost seems as if you tell him you are armed that he could care less. Well I will air on the side of good sense and continue to tell them I am armed..
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