CWP = threatening to teachers?

This is a discussion on CWP = threatening to teachers? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; i recently had a situation at my daughters primary school and sent the following letter to the principal as well as the superintendent of our ...

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Thread: CWP = threatening to teachers?

  1. #1
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    CWP = threatening to teachers?

    i recently had a situation at my daughters primary school and sent the following letter to the principal as well as the superintendent of our county schools. ive also made an active effort to inform other parents/PTA about this issue not to change it, but to inform them that its happening so that they can decide for themselves if they want their children participating:

    ----------
    September 24, 2007
    Dear Sirs,
    My daughter is a first grader at Lockwood Primary School. I drop her off each morning and walk her to the area where she waits for admission into the building. Since the beginning of the school year I have watched as the students are lined up and forced to march pointless redundant circles around an imaginary track while waiting for the doors to open. There is nothing voluntary or fun about this practice, the students do not have a choice. Those who do not wish to march are forced to march by the teachers. Those who accidentally or otherwise walk around the “wrong” side of a basketball goal or other marker are corrected by the teachers as if they had done something wrong.

    I am writing this to voice my strong objection to the practice of marching students in pointless redundant circles prior to starting each school day. I understand the objective which in and of itself is also one of my core issues with this practice. It may be easier to supervise children who are marching in pointless redundant circles than it is to supervise them as the play freely, but marching children in pointless redundant circles like good little soldiers is totalitarianistic in nature and as such this practice should be abolished immediately.

    I do not have a problem with allowing children to voluntarily march, but when it becomes mandatory it crosses lines that as a parent I am not comfortable with. My daughter has a developing young mind and her growth and creativity should be encouraged. Putting a child in line and forcing her to march in pointless redundant circles is representative of much bigger issues than the actual marching itself. My child does not march in pointless redundant circles, nor will she ever be forced to against her wishes. I stand with her by the door until its time for her to enter the building. This morning a teacher took her by the hand and put her at the back of the line simply because she did not march like a good little soldier in those pointless redundant circles. Her statement was “you didn’t walk the circles; you have to go to the back of the line”. At this point I voiced my objection and she was put back in her appropriate place in line. I was dumbfounded that failure to march in these pointless redundant circles could result in punishment.

    Some may feel that I am making to big of a deal about this and to them I can only say that as parents if they are comfortable with this practice then it works for them. I am not comfortable with it and my child will not be a part of it; nor will she be punished because of it. I have spoken with the Principal of Lockwood Primary School who defended the practice but stated that it was voluntary. To this I would recommend that he watch for himself and see how many children are told they have to march even when they do not wish to. I intend to contact the PTA and make other parents aware of this practice, as well as the School Board and the Billings Gazette. In the meantime I ask that you reconsider this practice. This is after all primary school and not a totalitarian regime.
    Thank you,

    Nathan W. Collier
    ----------

    the local newspaper posted my letter after gutting many key points. many of the teachers had several meetings (i have dear friends that teach there who keep me informed) to discuss damage control. not only did they discuss how to defend their position, they also conspired to discredit me. in the response blog of the local newspaper they signed up anonymously as concerned parents who love the practice of marching children. despite their best efforts i gained a lot of support for my issue and they decided to raise the stakes a bit.

    instead of dropping my child off and hurrying off to work, i wait there with her each morning to ensure that she makes it in the building safely. this i feel, is the least that i can do. these same teachers that defend the practice of marching children in pointless redundant circles somehow found out that i possess a concealed weapons permit in the state of montana. they contacted the sheriffs department with their "concerns" that i would bring a gun to school to settle the issue. ive never heard of anything so assinine from supposed "educated" people. knowing i have a CWP should tell you that:

    1- i am not a felon
    2- i have passed extensive background checks by the sheriffs department and the FBI.
    3- i have been fingerprinted, trained, and tested.
    4- i have demonstrated good character.
    5- i obey the law.

    the deputy called me and asked me to meet with her, which i was happy to do. she immediately made her position clear that it was not the sheriffs departments place to become involved in policy issues at the school. she simply wanted to inform me of their concerns. it was clear to me that she thought their concerns were stupid, but it is her job none-the-less to discuss it with me and i respect her very much for her professionalism. she seemed to completely support the citizens right to legally carry, and we actually ended up having a pretty dang good conversation. it was also clear to me that involving the sheriffs department when i have done absolutely NOTHING to even appear threatening was an attempt at intimidating me, which failed miserably. im simply dumbfounded that anyone would automatically equate a concealed weapons permit with an irrate parent shooting up a school. involving the sheriffs department and wasting their resources in an attempt to intimidate me is just trashy....these are the folks that are entrusted to care for our children?

    im currently at odds with my wife about how to handle this. i have always believed in the benefits of private school, but my daughter loves her current teacher and she wants to stay at lockwood. my wife also wants to keep her at lockwood, but thats another issue entirely. that simply possessing a CWP is grounds to be questioned by the local police anytime you disagree with "the system" is rather disturbing to me.

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  3. #2
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Sounds very similar to what they have done to the student in Minnisota that asked about being able to carry concealed on campus in response to the Virginia Tech shootings. They barred him from school until such time as he had a psychological evaluation from a doctor that the administration approved of. Having a gun or advocating the concept of self-defense is viewed as crazy by some of these sheeple.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  4. #3
    Member Array Bonesnofoa's Avatar
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    You don't mention what state your in, but in Washington it's perfectly legal to carry a concealed weapon when dropping off a student.

    RCW 9.41.280

    I seriously can't imagine seeing a troop of children marching around in circles for no reason. I know why the school does it, to make the kids do something so they aren't running around doing what kids do. If i had children i'd certainly be disgusted with this sort of belittling treatment from teachers and educators. It seems that homeschooling is looking at more more promising as public schools spiral into mini-prisons for our young.

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    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Good luck with your battle. I will just tell you, from personal experience, whether the educators are private or public they can be a real shady group to have dealings with when you disagree. Sorry to those here who are good and honest teachers, but I think even Ex-Soldier will agree with me on that statement.

    The only plus side about a private school is that you CAN pull their funding.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  6. #5
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesnofoa View Post
    You don't mention what state your in, but in Washington it's perfectly legal to carry a concealed weapon when dropping off a student.

    RCW 9.41.280
    are you certain that over-rides federal law 18USC922(q)(2)(3)? the sheriffs department here told me that despite no local regulation, federal law would apply.

    btw, im in montana.

  7. #6
    Member Array Bonesnofoa's Avatar
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    After searching the laws i copied everything i could find related to schools and firearms. Im no lawyer so i just highlighted the sections that seem most interesting.

    federal law 18USC922(q)(2)(3)

    (I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's schools by enactment of this subsection.

    (2)

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm -

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is -

    (I) not loaded; and

    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

    (3)

    (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm -

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;

    (iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or

    (iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.

    (4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.

    (r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to -

    (1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

    (2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.

    (s)

    (1) Beginning on the date that is 90 days after the date of enactment of this subsection and ending on the day before the date that is 60 months after such date of enactment, it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer a handgun (other than the return of a handgun to the person from whom it was received) to an individual who is not licensed under section 923, unless -

    (A) after the most recent proposal of such transfer by the transferee -

    (i) the transferor has -

    (I) received from the transferee a statement of the transferee containing the information described in paragraph (3);

    (II) verified the identity of the transferee by examining the identification document presented;

    (III) within 1 day after the transferee furnishes the statement, provided notice of the contents of the statement to the chief law enforcement officer of the place of residence of the transferee; and

    (IV) within 1 day after the transferee furnishes the statement, transmitted a copy of the statement to the chief law enforcement officer of the place of residence of the transferee; and

    (ii)

    (I) 5 business days (meaning days on which State offices are open) have elapsed from the date the transferor furnished notice of the contents of the statement to the chief law enforcement officer, during which period the transferor has not received information from the chief law enforcement officer that receipt or possession of the handgun by the transferee would be in violation of Federal, State, or local law; or

    (II) the transferor has received notice from the chief law enforcement officer that the officer has no information indicating that receipt or possession of the handgun by the transferee would violate Federal, State, or local law;

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    Member Array Randal16-1's Avatar
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    Don't give up the fight. Wishing you the best of luck.

    Be safe,

    Brian

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Firearms are threatening to small minds that have not thought it through, no matter how "educated." No suggestions as to how to change that. It baffles me as much as others.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #9
    Member Array Bonesnofoa's Avatar
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    I also checked Montana firearms codes another surprise. Still i'd get a lawyer's advice on the situation. In both cases of your daughter being forced to do things against her will. And your concealed carry while dropping off your child.

    http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-361.htm

    45-8-361. Possession or allowing possession of weapon in school building -- exceptions -- penalties -- seizure and forfeiture or return authorized -- definitions. (1) A person commits the offense of possession of a weapon in a school building if the person purposely and knowingly possesses, carries, or stores a weapon in a school building.
    (2) A parent or guardian of a minor commits the offense of allowing possession of a weapon in a school building if the parent or guardian purposely and knowingly permits the minor to possess, carry, or store a weapon in a school building.
    (3) (a) Subsection (1) does not apply to law enforcement personnel.
    (b) The trustees of a district may grant persons and entities advance permission to possess, carry, or store a weapon in a school building.
    (4) (a) A person convicted under this section shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500, imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both. The court shall consider alternatives to incarceration that are available in the community.
    (b) (i) A weapon in violation of this section may be seized and, upon conviction of the person possessing or permitting possession of the weapon, may be forfeited to the state or returned to the lawful owner.
    (ii) If a weapon seized under the provisions of this section is subsequently determined to have been stolen or otherwise taken from the owner's possession without permission, the weapon must be returned to the lawful owner.
    (5) As used in this section:
    (a) "school building" means all buildings owned or leased by a local school district that are used for instruction or for student activities. The term does not include a home school provided for in 20-5-109.
    (b) "weapon" means any type of firearm, a knife with a blade 4 or more inches in length, a sword, a straight razor, a throwing star, nun-chucks, or brass or other metal knuckles. The term also includes any other article or instrument possessed with the purpose to commit a criminal offense.

    History: En. Sec. 1, Ch. 435, L. 1997; amd. Sec. 6, Ch. 581, L. 1999.

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    Member Array Geno's Avatar
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    So what do you propose to do with the children who are dropped off to school early?

    My $ .02 is that the school could provide a place for the students to stash their books/backpacks and go to a play area if they would.

    A totally unsupervised bunch of kids running around where ever they wandered to would be a disaster too if any little Jack or Jill got hurt.

  12. #11
    Member Array Bonesnofoa's Avatar
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    But teachers are out there

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    The current government education system is broken. This is an example of one of dozens of reasons we decided to home-school our four kids for their last years (eight for the youngest) of K-12 education.

    They all are able to think for themselves, carry on an intelligent conversation with an adult (instead of grunting), read, write and cipher, and shoot a firearm (that is one of the few classes I taught), and all are Saved, three are currently in college.

    I suggest reading The Conspiracy of Ignorance:. You may be surprised at how the "marching" children fit into the overall plan for your children's education.

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    Ex Member Array Todd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastManOut View Post
    They all are able to think for themselves, carry on an intelligent conversation with an adult (instead of grunting), read, write and cipher, and shoot a firearm (that is one of the few classes I taught), and all are Saved, three are currently in college.
    All of which 95% of the current crop of high school kids can't do. Good job! My oldest is only 4, but having to deal with the BS of the school system the past couple years already (he has Autism and is in a school run Autism pre-school) we've already been toying with the idea of home schooling him and the 4 month old when he gets older.

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    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Flashback to my grandfather's story

    My grandfather died 50 years ago, but I knew him well when I was a young boy. He was born in Germany about 1882 and emigrated to the US in 1893 with his family.

    One of the stories he told me concerned attending the German public schools as a boy, when Bismark was the leader of the country. He said that the children were taught to march with wooden rifles at the age of 8 to 10, to prepare them for the German military.

    When I read about the Montana school children marching in circles around the track I flashed back on this story. I hope that we aren't going down the same path as Germany did then.

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    Senior Member Array mzmtg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesnofoa View Post
    I also checked Montana firearms codes another surprise. Still i'd get a lawyer's advice on the situation. In both cases of your daughter being forced to do things against her will. And your concealed carry while dropping off your child.

    http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-361.htm

    45-8-361. Possession or allowing possession of weapon in school building -- exceptions -- penalties -- seizure and forfeiture or return authorized -- definitions. (1) A person commits the offense of possession of a weapon in a school building if the person purposely and knowingly possesses, carries, or stores a weapon in a school building.
    (2) A parent or guardian of a minor commits the offense of allowing possession of a weapon in a school building if the parent or guardian purposely and knowingly permits the minor to possess, carry, or store a weapon in a school building.
    (3) (a) Subsection (1) does not apply to law enforcement personnel.
    (b) The trustees of a district may grant persons and entities advance permission to possess, carry, or store a weapon in a school building.
    (4) (a) A person convicted under this section shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500, imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both. The court shall consider alternatives to incarceration that are available in the community.
    (b) (i) A weapon in violation of this section may be seized and, upon conviction of the person possessing or permitting possession of the weapon, may be forfeited to the state or returned to the lawful owner.
    (ii) If a weapon seized under the provisions of this section is subsequently determined to have been stolen or otherwise taken from the owner's possession without permission, the weapon must be returned to the lawful owner.
    (5) As used in this section:
    (a) "school building" means all buildings owned or leased by a local school district that are used for instruction or for student activities. The term does not include a home school provided for in 20-5-109.
    (b) "weapon" means any type of firearm, a knife with a blade 4 or more inches in length, a sword, a straight razor, a throwing star, nun-chucks, or brass or other metal knuckles. The term also includes any other article or instrument possessed with the purpose to commit a criminal offense.

    History: En. Sec. 1, Ch. 435, L. 1997; amd. Sec. 6, Ch. 581, L. 1999.
    Looks to me like one can carry at a school, but not "in a school building."

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