Should this person be carrying?

This is a discussion on Should this person be carrying? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I wasnt sure where to post this so feel free to kick it around if so desired. Another forum jogged a memory and I thought ...

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Thread: Should this person be carrying?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Should this person be carrying?

    I wasnt sure where to post this so feel free to kick it around if so desired.

    Another forum jogged a memory and I thought Id pass this along to share and see what others think.

    When we (wife and I) were taking our Minnesota carry permit class and testing there was an interesting cross section of the community doing the same. In getting to know the people one, older (my age) lady, reveled that she was from a part of the community known for violence, shootings, etc. etc. If there was anybody there (IMHO) that needed to be legally carrying a gun for protection it was her.

    To shorten up the story when we got to the shooting gun handling and proficiency part of the exam it was obvious the only thing she knew about guns was how to spell the word. With extensive personal hands on help and tutoring, a gun shop loner 22 pistol, and many extra rounds to fire she finally got enough shots in the silhouette to be counted if one ignored the massive amount of holes in the white paper around the border. She walked out with her diploma and assuming she has scrounged up a legal gun is now walking the streets with it in her purse.

    I have mixed feelings over this. More negative than positive I might add. I would like your input as well just to confirm or maybe rethink my opinions.

    Thank You;
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    if you ever see her on the street, RUN!!!!

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    Ex Member Array Creature's Avatar
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    Because proficiency is extremely important, I do hope she made it her mission to improve her shooting skills.

    Whether a CCW permit is a right or a privilege comes into question. Personally, I think it is a right...not a priviledge. That said, we should keep in mind we are accountable for every round we fire.
    Last edited by Creature; October 14th, 2007 at 06:07 PM.

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    There was a person just like this in my class. She showed up on the range with what looked like an old 25 cal Jennings that had been laying out in the yard for about 10 years. The gun was virtually non functional and the lady required lots of time consuming coaching. I hope she never went on to get her CCW permit. Scary.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Not Likely

    She probably had enough trouble coming up with the $150 for the class let alone enough $ for a gun, along with the $100 for the MN cary permit. Then for her to drive to the only range in the area pay for the ammunition and the $20+ for range time. I'd surprised if she has shot another round since.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  7. #6
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    This is another reason why I refuse to do anymore CCW training for the public. I've found that this isnt the exception, but the norm. People expected to take a 20 hour class and be experts, some think they are after a 20 hour class. That is scary.
    I also refused to sign off on anybody who was not ready for the street. It ruffeled a few feathers, but most understood why.
    It not only effects them, but the ccw community on a whole.
    A wise man once told me, If its worth doing at all, its worth doing right.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #7
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    I've got some feelings about that too. So much so, that I set up a "special" section for the gunclassses that my gun club gives.We had discussed doing this before, and as the Training Coordinator for our Gunclub, I finallly put it all together.I only wish that we could have done it earlier.

    We did this at the last class we had,(yesterday) and it worked out very well. At the beginning of the class, I asked everyone if they were new shooters, or if they felt comfortable that they could safely handle their guns or if anyone would like some extra instruction. Six people raised their hands.

    Out of the six, 4 had never shot a gun, 1 had shot 30 years ago, and one had a new gun that her husband got her that she had never fired.

    We separated them from the other 30+ students and took them to the Pistol range, which is at a different location than our rifle range where everyone else was set up. We did this so that those that needed more instruction could get it without holding up the rest of the class.

    We shot a different course of fire and took the time to explain how and why and made sure that everyone was 100 percent with their ability's to safely handle a weapon without endangering everyone within a mile and half radius. When the class was over, everyone felt much better. They had confidence that they didn't have in the gun,themselves, and they felt much better about the situation in general.

    They understood that that CHL class was not the end to a means of protection, but just the beginning, and that practice,practice and more practice was the key to becoming proficient. We spoke of the responsibilities of gun ownership, safe use and storage of the gun and asked many questions about the law and legal processes.

    They also understood that time was not a factor, that we would be there as long as it took to make them a better shooter and that we were committed to the process.

    Being the first class that we did that too, myself and the other instructors thought it was an overwhelming success. All shooters displayed major improvement, all of them were tearing the center out of the target, all of them were handling their firearms in a safe manner. I was told that the relaxed manner of instruction, and the fact that time was not a factor was a major influence into the learning process as they were somewhat apprehensive about the class to begin with.

    It worked well enough that it will now become standard procedure for us to teach that way. It makes no sense mixing the new shooters up with the already proficient shooters that shoot alot or have been doing so for their whole lives. Lots of people come into the class with the skills they need already, and I've always thought that some of the less proficient shooters kind of got lost in the crowd and could have received some extra instruction.

    We had 3 instructors for the six people so that the ratio was pretty good..lot of help there. We also used the shooter and coach method, so that they felt more at ease.

    Like I said, the whole process worked well. Not only did the students feel better about life, but the instructors as well. I also think that anyone else that would have been critical of their skills otherwise would have felt more comfortable and at ease about the fact that these people could and would carry a concealed weapon and do so in a completely safe manner.

    Included in this section of class was the Mayor,who at the start of the class couldn't hit the broadside of a large barn ten feet in front of him.When he left, he was shooting well, had learned the basic fundamentals, knew when to shoot and not to shoot, felt confident that he could safely handle his weapon and was looking forward to doing it again, so much so that he filled out the paperwork,payed the fee and became a member of the range so that he could practice.He knew and understood that what he learned was just the beginning,not the end to the lifelong process of learning and improving.

    And that is what its all about.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    Should this person be carrying?

    With extensive personal hands on help and tutoring, a gun shop loner 22 pistol, and many extra rounds to fire she finally got enough shots in the silhouette to be counted if one ignored the massive amount of holes in the white paper around the border. She walked out with her diploma ...
    I would never, ever pass someone through a course on safety, handling and proficiency that could not display enough competence in those areas that I felt others wouldn't be in danger from the person. But then, was this a safety/handling type of class, or merely the CHL rules & regs coverage? Depends on the state, of course, but often all that's required is a glossing over the relevant laws and only minor range time. I, too, have seen instructors pass borderline and questionable students, ones who could not prove they could safely handle a gun.

    Personally, I put my money where my mouth was, when I was contemplating acquiring a CHL. I first spent 2yrs on the range and other training, gaining proficiency and competency. At the end of that 2yr period, I had progressed enough to be a decent shot with a dozen different types of pistols. At that point, I then took a safety course, then the CHL rules & regs course. There was no way I'd go get a CHL unless I could first prove to myself that I would never be a danger to the proverbial 3yr old across the street, should it become necessary for me to defend against an attacker.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  10. #9
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    Personally, I put my money where my mouth was, when I was contemplating acquiring a CHL
    You Sir,are in the minority from what I've seen. Most people nowadays are so focused on getting it done NOW that they dont even think about that.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  11. #10
    Senior Member Array Skygod's Avatar
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    I believe that there is alway's one person in every CCW/CHL class that is clearly not ready to carry a firearm on the streets.

    The CCW/CHL class it's self is more centered on legal aspects of the use of the deadly force, legal pitfalls, deadly force continuim, etc, etc, etc, It's not designed, nor should be, a tactical firearms course of instruction. Mine, like others, was placing 11 shots out of 21 into the black for qualification. This is not hard for most of us, but some cannot hold their shots in the black to save their life.

    The question then remains. Should additional shooting skills be demonstrated in order to be granted a CCW/CHL permit ? Yes and no. It's a right, not necessarily a privilege. Altough some would argue that the mere fact that you pay for the course, pay the Sheriffs office and be finger printed is akin to recieving a drivers lisence, which I wont argue that it is. But, must each and every CCW/CHL holder be forced to attend a one week tactical pistol course at Blackwater ?

    What if each state required that the CCW/CHL carrier had to qualify two or three times a year? Of couse this would also cost another $25 each time. I'd be certain that I was spending enough time at the range with my carry gun to insure my qualification. However, this presents even more buearocracy into the fold for what is clearly a right, not a privilege.

    I don't have that answer, but some people do scare me with their firearms.

    Stay Safe.
    Perhaps your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    You Sir,are in the minority from what I've seen. Most people nowadays are so focused on getting it done NOW that they dont even think about that.
    I guess thats just it. People go at it backwards. Instead of developing a decent amount of skill first, then going to get a permit they get their permit first. Who knows if they follow through with the rest of it.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I've got some feelings about that too. So much so, that I set up a "special" section for the gunclassses that my gun club gives.We had discussed doing this before, and as the Training Coordinator for our Gunclub, I finallly put it all together.I only wish that we could have done it earlier.
    That sounds like an excellent approach. I wish more places did this. I was worried myself about a few folks in my CCW class I took oh ...8 years or so ago. One lady in particular wasn't even quite sure how to load her 1911 let alone manage to pass the range portion of the testing... It was clear to those of us in the class that she needed some extra help (which isn't a bad thing), but it was also clear that the instructors and the rest of the class were not going to wait to reteach her the basics(short of the "4 golden rules"). The class was really geared towards folks that were already shooters and mostly covered the legal aspects(which was what I was there for). It really wasn't designed for beginners I don't think.

    I offered to do some range time with her afterwards and we did a couple of one hour range sessions covering basic safety and how her pistol functioned etc... on our own the next weekend. I just hope she kept on practicing. Between both of our work schedules at the time, I kind of lost track of her. Nice lady though...too bad she was married -the good ones are always taken.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I guess thats just it. People go at it backwards. Instead of developing a decent amount of skill first, then going to get a permit they get their permit first. Who knows if they follow through with the rest of it.
    Well, I sort of see the hindsight...I have heard of a few instances where some folks had specific reasons (active threats of violence/running from a psycho spouse) where they went out and did whatever they had to do to get their permits as fast as possible. Those I can sort of understand. The rest....
    I dunno. I guess it's like skydiving. Who wants to jump out of a perfectly good airplane without knowing how the darn chute works?
    "Hmm let's see now...This thingy goes here...that one might go there...what's this handle for...".
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    glock perfection

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    My sportsman's club has a "first steps" class that applicants take if they don't belong to the club or have a member vouch for their ability to handle a weapon. It's necessary because the permit class takes 8 hours to complete and there's no time for primary instruction.
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    Opinions expressed here are based upon Michigan state law ONLY. Other state laws may differ. Know and observe your local laws.

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