Could you count???
This is a discussion on Could you count??? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My learned defensive shooting technique is whatever works for me.
I do not ever try to count expended rounds.
Because I know that "counting" will ...
June 28th, 2005 12:09 AM
My 3 cents worth
My learned defensive shooting technique is whatever works for me.
I do not ever try to count expended rounds.
Because I know that "counting" will likely never work when the S.H.T.F.
The slide locking back should trigger an immediate auto response to reload.
I am ALWAYS extra careful about shot placement since I often carry a European SIG P220 w/ the mag release on the butt.
That requires lots more manual dexterity to effect a necessary lightning fast reload.
Like anything else that we humans attempt...it can be done swiftly with repetition, practice, & good motor/muscle memory.
Naturally, common sense dictates that it would be ideal to have the "business" already ended before any panic reload is necessary.
Since all of my primary carry guns are single stack .45 & NOT double stack "other calibers" ~ I personally would always "drop" a partially expended magazine (after there were "Shots Fired") in favor of a full one should there happen to be be a lull in the defensive shooting scenario.
That is just me...I don't expect everyone to agree with me or to follow my way of thinking.
June 28th, 2005 05:46 PM
You'll never know if you will be able to count rounds till you're in the middle of a sh*t storm, at which point you'll have other things to worry about. Even if you have been through it before it maybe different the next time.
''In extremis'' - would you be aware of your round count? If I was using a revo I would know - it's an old old habit from years of compo, and occurs whether I like it or not. But a semi? Not so sure.
Basically your brain will be demanding as much information about the threat as possible, everything else will be on the back burner.
Ergo, train as if you will not know the round count. For me this means:
Any time I get click/no bang - > emergency reload or wet reload.
Any time I scan/assess and see no threats and I'm in good cover and I've run thru my comms drill and I think my mag if half empty or more, or I don't know the condition tac reload.
"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
William of Ockham (ca. 1285-1349)
June 28th, 2005 06:57 PM
I count because I was taught to count back when I was taught to shoot. I've done it ever since, and don't even really think about it, now. Whether you count or not, all that really matters is that you know exactly what you are going to do when the ammo gets low, and train for it.
June 29th, 2005 12:32 AM
I dont think that counting rounds in a shootout is even considered by anyone that has ever been in one. Thats probably why the guys that have been in them never even mentioned it.
Several officers in my dept were involved in a shootout in January this year. The perp killed his grandfather by cutting his throat and then shot at a cop that stopped him for a broken tailight. He missed the cop and fled the scene. The call (officer needs assistance, shots fired)was put out and officer s from several agencys responded.
He was eventually forced off of the road where he fled into a field and engaged several cops with a 12 guage. When it was said and done, he lay in the field having been hit with 1 .45 and 2 .223's. He still lives and was recently discharged form the hospital.
In the investigation of the shoot, not ONE single cop out of 6 different shooters could remember how many rounds they shot. One said that he was amazed when he went to slide lock on his Glock, another commented that he had thought he only shot 3 times, when in fact he shot 9 shots. One with a shotgun emptied it and was fumbling around in his gear bag looking for more ammo when it ended and argued with the investigators that he had only shot 5 times when in fact he had dome a reload and shot 10.
Fact of the matter was...noone really knew. Consider the fact that several windows and lightbars were shot out by the perp who was just shooting at any and everything and that the cops were ducking for cover the whole time and trying not to get shot.
I think that discussion of round count is mostly for the sake of discussion and maybe it works for competition purposes but when the fit hits the shan it all goes out with the rest of the theories...
June 29th, 2005 08:09 AM
Don't forget that we have a few wars to look back on also.
And in a hot firefight soldiers could not count rounds & they were getting shot at more often tha police officers.
Not that getting shot at is anything that most people will ever get used to.
June 29th, 2005 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by HotGuns
June 29th, 2005 11:37 AM
Competition is certainly the environment I came from, and I've never been in a gunfight. I've been counting so long, I don't know if I would do it out of habit, or if it would disappear along with fine motor control under those conditions.
Originally Posted by HotGuns
June 29th, 2005 11:48 AM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
I agree - in the heat of a firefight all probability of a successful count will go out the window. I do tho still have a wish to do so - somehow! Reason being I have an almost paranoid concern over not being ''out'' at the most critical moment.
Could be that Murphy has always hounded me thru life and I'd expect him to show up at the worst possible moment!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
June 29th, 2005 04:30 PM
Youall have stated about 15 reasons to carry multiple guns [:-)
June 30th, 2005 09:50 AM
Well, true. But after your 4th piece goes dry on the way to the Compton Quickie Mart, you need to have a plan to reload......
Originally Posted by KC135
June 30th, 2005 10:59 AM
I doubt that I would be aware of exact round count during a self-defense scenario, though I know from experience that the mind is sometimes aware of minute details when under severe stress. I might be aware that I'm "half empty" (or "half full," depending on how the fight is going ), or almost out.
As far as going dry at the worst time, one drill I practice at the range is: shoot 2 or 3, reload, shoot 2 or 3, reload, etc., with the emphasis being on a smooth reload at the end of each string of fire. I hope that I'm self-programming to at least be thinking of reloading every time there is a pause. I don't do this every time, though. The last thing I want to do is be performing a mindless reload after two rounds while the bad guy's buddies are closing on me.
July 29th, 2005 04:38 PM
Re: Could you count???
From my point of view, you should not even try to count rounds within a violent confrontation.
I have had many students ask me this same question, and I continually have them run various scenarios with multiple things occuring at once. If I remember correctly, the success ratio of round counting in these scenarios was around 5%.
My positon and what I wrote about in my book is that you should always reload when you want too, not when you have too. Something I frequently tell my students, is that when the little voice says "Hey stupid....... Reload NOW" don't think about it, do it. For failure to listen will likely result in an empty weapon.
Bryan S. Williams
Williams Associates Protective Services, LLC
Main Website - www.wa-protective.com
New Book Website - www.wttrw.com
August 1st, 2005 01:45 AM
I wouldn't even try to count.
Speed/Aggression, Accuracy, and Suppression of Fire is your biggest advantage once the rounds start flying.
I would do a tactical reload AFTER I can guarantee the immediate threat has been neutralized. I was taught mainly to do a Tac Reload before leaving a room after engaging Hostiles/Tangos. And thats when you have someone covering you. Should have to you engage a hostile out in the open(no cover), Speed/Aggression, Accuracy, and Suppression of Fire will most likely decide if you go home.
I practice & practice & practice & practice & practice & practice & practice drawing from the holster and speed reload(reload from slide lock) in every piece of clothing I'll be wearing while armed. Fine motor-skills decline when the SHTF!
Have an E & E plan for the E & E plan!
Train how you Fight
Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast!
"Anything you do can get you killed, including nothing." Murphy's Combat Law
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