Could you count???

Could you count???

This is a discussion on Could you count??? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ''In extremis'' - would you be aware of your round count? If I was using a revo I would know - it's an old old ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28
  1. #1
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484

    Could you count???

    ''In extremis'' - would you be aware of your round count? If I was using a revo I would know - it's an old old habit from years of compo, and occurs whether I like it or not. But a semi? Not so sure.

    Let's say you DO carry a spare mag for your semi - would you ''keep count'' and do a tac' reload - or just go to slide-lock and then reload?? This may well, for obvious reasons, apply much more to the 1911 brigade!

    I reckon for myself, if 15+1 ain't done the trick then probably I am in deep do-do anyways. I think tho I'd be going to slidelock on the SIG. That said, if there was a ''lull'' in ''problems'' I just very well might do a tac' to make sure I was still prepared.

    Of course - same old - we'd probably never know until this occurred.!!!! I do practice reloads a lot tho - and that is one reason I enjoy my IDPA - it keeps me sharper.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


  2. #2
    DC Founder
    Array Bumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    20,045
    I can't say for sure, during a serious situation, but I think I would know. I have always counted subconciously for some reason, probably because of my anal-ness about trying to be aware of everything going on around me....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,213
    I counter with this question: Would you have to?

    I mean come on... what realistically is going to happen by the time you've emptied that gun? Surely you've either won or lost by then.

    We get so caught up in capacity and "tactical reloads", etc. Chic Gaylord, Jack O'Connor, and J. Henry Fitzgerald never once penned advice on reloading in a gunfight, and I'd bet you a dollar they all used arms whose capacity was exactly six.

    I've yet to see where Colonel Rex Applegate commented on how to quickly reload a handgun.

    These guys all saw more real combat than I or 99% of all people period ever will, and none of them even touched on the subject.

    As a matter of fact, I bet you can trace this whole idea of "tactical reloads" or counting rounds back to 1976, when suddenly your score was divided by your time.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Pocatello, Idaho
    Posts
    940
    It's become second nature - I can usually tell both my count and that of the shooters around me as well. Friends look at me funny when I tell them to reload on the line without looking at their gun and they're still thinking there's one in the tube. :)
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Pocatello, Idaho
    Posts
    940
    I mean come on... what realistically is going to happen by the time you've emptied that gun? Surely you've either won or lost by then.
    I can get off the entire magazine at multiple targets in less than four seconds. Like it or not, (and I don't), people don't suddenly die that fast. They may well be still shooting back, or have other friends I haven't noticed. I'm going to reload just in case.

    We get so caught up in capacity and "tactical reloads", etc.
    Capacity matters when you're in a situation that's not one on one, and matters a lot. I've faced four on one situations where I've been unable to retreat, and at that point, with any handgun alive, I'm not happy. With one with less than 10 rounds of ammunition, I'm probably going to get hurt and hurt badly because I can't deliver enough volume of fire to take down the people as fast as I'd like to.

    Bad guys come in teams. I miss the days when you'd get a solitary mugger or armed robber.

    Chic Gaylord,
    The same man who thought that the 200gr .38 special was superior to the .357 in dropping opponents?

    Jack O'Connor,
    Against sheep and antelope and exotic game, they're not generally shooting back. I wouldn't call it combat either.

    and J. Henry Fitzgerald never once penned advice on reloading in a gunfight,
    Fitzgerald didn't forsee a lot of other advancements in shooting and ballistics that have occurred since 1930, either.

    and I'd bet you a dollar they all used arms whose capacity was exactly six.
    Two of three, perhaps. Sixguns aren't particularly useful against antelope infantry.

    Times change, technology changes. Hell, there were people who swore (ala Jeff Cooper et al) that a reliably expanding JHP would never be developed from a handgun. Combat handgunning in many respects is still an art in its infancy. Until there are folks willing to step beyond the hokum of the 1950s and gun store wisdom, we won't get any changes for the better.

    I've yet to see where Colonel Rex Applegate commented on how to quickly reload a handgun.
    Chances are in Applegate's case he made the assumption that those taking his ideas forward were already familiar with the basics of operation, including reloading.

    These guys all saw more real combat than I or 99% of all people period ever will, and none of them even touched on the subject.
    As a civilian, I've seen more shootings than most ever will. I wouldn't want that experience to be one that became standard, but the truth is that it's a world of difference between being a policeman, police advisor, military guy, or gov't agent and between being Joe Average with a handgun for your own protection. I'm far more interested in what Joe Average has to say.

    As a matter of fact, I bet you can trace this whole idea of "tactical reloads" or counting rounds back to 1976, when suddenly your score was divided by your time.
    I've been shooting longer than I've been aware of combat shooting sports ala IDPA by many years, and counting shots since I began. When you've got a finite amount of shells, and a potentially infinite amount of targets, it's generally a good idea to at least know where you stand - especially when you don't have a reload.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  6. #6
    Member Array Jim_Linch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    154
    Count? No, know when I may be low? yeah if it's the same gun I usually carry. Don't worry about counting, worry about being the fastest to reload from slide lock.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array CombatEffective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    998
    If carrying my P95 I have 16 in the weapon. I doubt I would ever get into anything where that wouldn't handle it, but I usually have a spare mag on me when I carry a bottom feeder. If I was engaged in something prolonged I would probably do a tac reload as that is how we train.
    Shooters' Legacy

    Special sections for S&W and Ruger

  8. #8
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    16,029
    round count is very useful. Best learn it and not need than the other way around.

  9. #9
    Member Array MechE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    135
    When I was in the military there was a trick we used to help us keep track of the ammo we had in out mags. We accepted the real fact that it was impossible to keep track of the round count in a magazine. It didn't matter weather you had 15 rounds in a mag or 30, keeping a running total in you head was impossible because you had to many other things to worry about. The best we could do was just keep a mental note of the condition of your mag. For example we think to ourselves, "do I have a full mag, half a mag or am I almost empty." If we thought "half a mag" or "almost empty" and there was a lull in the action then a reload with retention was what we did. It was easier to think of your mag condition in those terms than to frustrate yourself with counting.

    Somthing that might be better than counting rounds is to count double taps, if you trained to do double taps that is. For example, a 1911 with 8 round mag and one it the chamber would be 4 double taps. It might be easier to keep track 4 double taps than to track 9 bullets when the stress monkey is on your back.
    "EVERYONE is operating with only partial information" :hand27:
    Some Wise Guy, USA 2001

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    742

    Question Count

    Yep, can count..but much rather concentrate on more important things..ie...staying alive.

    Have carried multiple guns for the past 24 years...and one reload for each. Before that, one gun on person or in vehicle.

    No gunfights, no shots fired, a very few presentations, fewer seen by confronter.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

  11. #11
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    .but much rather concentrate on more important things..ie...staying alive.
    KC - quite agree on that which is of course our prime goal. The aspect I am exploring is whether if we count unconsciously, at least to some degree - we may be better able to achieve a more effective reload - as against relying on a sudden awareness of slidelock!

    While it is (hopefully) not going to be the case - if faced with multiple aggressors then the choice of reload timing could just be critical.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    742
    Most people who shoot while in a gunfight, think they have fired far fewer rounds than was the case. Friend thought he had fired about 5 when he had fired 15. Not unusual.

    I refuse to clutter my mind with information that is unimportant. If all three of my carry guns are empty, hopefully I have fought my way to my vehicle, and have retreived my rifle...tho in reality, if my opponents can shoot, I am likely toast.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

  13. #13
    Member Array MechE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    135
    I always count rounds when I'm at the range...but during the few IDPA like & steel plate matches I've shot, I've lost track of how many rounds were in the magazine.
    And that's just fun training....
    ....If it were for real, and there were multiple bad guys, I would try to shoot my way to cover & then reload. If there were one bad guy then what ever the outcome, it would probably be over with one magazine anyway.
    "EVERYONE is operating with only partial information" :hand27:
    Some Wise Guy, USA 2001

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Applegate/Fairbairn's Shainghai police were a totally different story than the CCW. I think if you go after any surviving BG's with a stiletto, or pistol-whip their heads into gray goo, you may have a bit of a problem..... :chairshot Much of A&F's thinking was in going from 0-60 in a heartbeat successfully. My guess would be it (reloading)wasn't addressed, since a speedy reload would be taken as common sense for someone seriously following their way of thinking. "Know thy gear..." They didn't talk about clubbing or pistol-whipping either.......

    Anyhow, shoot 'til they go down/slide-lock, and reload.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Away - Health Problems
    Posts
    17,353
    i think i would know but maybe not... either way im shooting to slide lock then reloading tac relaoding i just dont dig i mean the gun was working maybe i only got 1 more in it maybe 3 but why dump a mag that was working to slam another home that might not

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Post Count
    By 21bubba in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: January 16th, 2010, 02:42 PM
  2. Ruger Count Down
    By gwlammers in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: January 8th, 2010, 01:27 AM
  3. Does a BB gun count?
    By buckeye .45 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: February 14th, 2007, 01:43 PM

Search tags for this page

counting rounds in combat, useful

Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors