This is a discussion on I Haven't Had a Good Rant In Some Time within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by JD We're still looking into the possibility of opening our own shop, we're actually looking at locations and will be starting a ...
Well, since JD let the cat out of the bag (so to speak).. yes, it was my employer (I think) who "asked" me (though not so nicely) to not carry in his shop, even though his son is listed as the owner and the guy who signs my paychecks.
Anyway, for those of you who don't know. JD and I moved from PA and are now in VA. I got another job in a gun shop very shortly after arriving down here.
I was excited because I hoped it was the same caliber (no pun intended) as the place I had just left. The place I worked at in PA was outstanding, not only in their views of concealed carry and self defense but also in their respect of women, new shooters and getting people to where they need to be.
My old gun shop was and I believe still is, a great example of what a gun shop should be.
Anyway, back to the incident... The owner's father (I'm not sure if he still owns the property or what) was walking behind me as I reaching for a pen that was rolling across the counter-top and getting ready to fall and as the space behind the counter is pretty tight, it's not unusual that someone with put their hand on your shoulder or side to push you aside a little to get through. I assumed this is what he was doing and thought it was just unfortunate that he had decided to push me aside and accidentally found my gun.
He patted my gun a few times through my sweater and that's when I realized this wasn't just a simple matter of trying to squeeze by me.
I turned just as he grabbed at the butt of my gun through my sweater and started yelling at me. And by yelling I don't mean he was just scolding me, he was YELLING. His son heard the commotion and came over.
What happened next was a little surreal as it happened so fast.
He was still yelling, saying something to the effect of, "There is NO reason to have a loaded gun in here," and telling me to take it out to my car right now.
Another employee was saying that maybe it wasn't a good idea for me to put it in my car, but maybe I should put it in one of the safes.
The son was trying to explain that I had a permit and it was completely legit.
At that moment the father said, "I don't care what she has," and started pulling on my sweater... I'm assuming to try to take my gun from me.
This is when all bets were off. As I was reaching for his hand and pulling away (though I couldn't go far as I was still backed up against the counter), his son grabbed him and pulled him away and tried calming him down.
I didn't hear what was being said because I was heading for the door.
When I returned awhile later, the son tried to apologize and make up some lame excuses for his father, and the father (thank goodness) was gone (at least for a little while).
I understand that an establishment makes the decisions on what they will allow on their property, but I agree that this could have been handled VERY differently.
No.. I would NEVER have allowed him to take my gun from me. My loaded gun is MY responsibility and that means it's my responsibility to keep it on my person and in my control. I don't care if it would have taken breaking fingers or putting the heel of my palm through his nose, he WOULD NOT have gotten my gun.
And that's all I have to say about that.
When one takes property from the person of another, that's a robbery.
He's lucky you are a nice person. He could be nursing some sore body parts in a jail cell.
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
Hang in there Lima and JD, things change! JD I'm jealous as hell....wish my wife carried a gun and worked in a gun shop.
Sounds like a Mr. and Mrs. Smith movie
Sorry but commenting on rant one , if " they " saw you had a ccw firearm you failed not them . All bs aside you need to re evaluate your carry priority's. as to rant two ( women and firearms ) I have long held that firearms are limited to ergonomics , not caliber . Be it man or woman all can handle all of the common cal/designs . smallerhands ( not plumbing , not weight ) take techniques .. that is it . I understand your frustration but if you carry concealed then conceal the dammed thing , if with a new holster then dont reach of a pen ect.. no matter how good the holster is it cannot defend the wearor of decetition when the waror does crap to defeat the carry method . Wuv ya lima you are a great lil sis , but ****** idiots abound , and dont add to them by something as simple as chasing a pen .
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
There's BRA (BlueRidgeArsenal) out in Chantilly too. They have their own indoor range(recently remodeled). I don't go there very often anymore though. They've always seemed a good bit more expensive than other places.
-The Mist (2007)"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
A couple of suggestions:
1) Find out if the old man who made the grab was the real owner or not. If not, then has has no right to tell you what or what not to do - regardless if he is the father of the owner or not. Ask the son to explain the business relationship the father has to you.
2) Also advise the son that his father likely committed battery (maybe assault depending on VA laws) and that you will not tolerate *any* unwanted touching from any persons, including employees and mgmt. If it happens again, that you would pursue full legal recourse. Of course, you could do this now but it would probably end your employment there.
3) Ask the son if there is a *policy* that prohibits employees from carrying personal sidearms while on the premises. If no policy exists, then you should be good to go. If it exists (or he plans on adding it), then you will have to decide if the job is worth it or not.
What the old man did was illegal (battery, with attempt to grab a weapon) and uncalled for.
I think you handled the situation well by leaving the store. The old man probably has no idea of what was averted when his son pulled him off you. The son may have an idea, but if he doesn't he needs to be made aware of it.
I'm sorry this happened to you, I hope it works out whether you stay there or move on.
Any gun shop I can ever recall being in most of the employees were armed from what I could tell. Some open carried and the others, well, were none of my business.
Lima, good luck with this, better luck with your future plan.
Limatunes, GREAT RANT!!
I have a suggestion. Please consider it.
For those times when a woman comes in and is being misled by idiot men (seems to happen a lot where you are, and we can extrapolate that it happens a lot everywhere ) I think you should print up some CARDS.
On the card, I would print something to this effect:
"Please get in touch with me as soon as you have a free moment. I believe that information that has been passed to you as you seek knowledge on the subject of armed self defense has been erroneous. I would like to make sure you are able to obtain straightforward, no-nonsense information that will help you make an good decision, and will do so free of charge, in confidence."
You would slip the woman this card either before, during, or after she is misled by these idiots. She will know to take their garbage with a grain of salt, and will know to see you later for the real deal. And you can be discreet about it and not have to stand there and argue with some dope in front of her, possibly giving offense.
You're at a bit of a disadvantage in this situation.
First, they run the business, so you have to abide by their rules.
However, that doesn't mean you can't challenge them to change them. No matter how the father feels about loaded weapons, gun shops are a target. If BGs find out, that the shopkeepers don't carry.........that will make them a much more appealing target. (If I ran a gun shop, open carry would be required! I would want the deterrent, of the BG knowing the employees were armed.) The counter guys in Greentop in Richmond don't carry either. Just recently a miscreant came in, asked to look at a Glock & then ran out the door with it! If the countermen had been armed I don't think he would have tried that.
Let them know that your intent is to protect your life, not only while at work, but as you go thru your daily life.
Secondly, face it...your a girl (no disrespect here), but you are also young. This can equate to the older man's opinion of you to be less than you deserve. SO you have to prove yourself.....which could take time & you may not still be able to get thru his 'thick skull'.
If I were you, I would look at some of the other places nearby for another job. You may find a more hospitable environment.
Keep in mind, women in the gun business are a great asset. You may have to go further to prove yourself, but with the increase in women shooters, a female's input at a gun shop would be valuable. Plus to the men (who aren't threatened by a knowledgeable woman), a woman can be a pleasant diversion from the normal know-it-alls that populate many gun shops.
(p.s....If you & JD are free this weekend....come up to Richmond to the gun show at the Showplace. You may be able to find some leads on employment. Me & my wife are going, tomorrow while the Million Mom protesters are there.)
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper
Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!
"Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell
Thanks to all of you who have responded. It's nice to know that there are people out there who will understand and give you a good pat on the back when you need it.
Anyway, concealed carry was never discussed during the hiring process, but my first day on the job I was talking to the head manager guy (the owners brother-in-law) and we were talking about concealed carry and he told me he carried every day and believed people should do just that.
I took this as a good sign that concealed carry was welcome.
After the incident with the father I asked the owner for clarification.
He was SOOO vague I'm still confused.
He said that the ATF requires every gun to be brought into his store to be logged into their books and so it would be a hassle for me to log it in and out every day (which, I know is some MAJOR BS), and that he wants loaded guns to be inaccessible to customers who are less safety minded, who just pick up guns and start pulling on triggers (which also confused me because if it was concealed, on my person, no one is just going to pick it up and pull the trigger, unless he's previously killed me and chopped off my hand).
He kept dancing around the issue and I never could get a straight answer out of him.
Then, today, the manager (B-I-L) was readjusting his shirt and I caught a pretty clear glimpse of his Glock.
I'm not going to say anything as childish as, "Well, he gets to carry. Why can't I?!?!" I understand that this guy has a little more history with the store and I also already know that he's not very intimidated by his father-in-law. After twenty years of being married to the sister and daughter of the owner and his father, he's got to have a pretty good "IN."
Well, anyway, that's where things stand.
I've respected their wishes.. But the amount of knives I carry every day has climbed from two to five (I just bought my fifth one today, too).
I did let the owner know that I do not appreciate being man-handled and it WILL NOT happen again without consequences.
As far as whether I was properly concealing or not. I don't know. I believed I was, and even though I was trying out a new holster I was wearing a VERY loose sweater just in case. Like I said, I don't know if he saw the bulge first or felt it first by just trying to guide me to the side so he could get past me.
Yes, if he SAW it first, it was a concealment issue. If he felt it by touching me, then there's nothing I could have done about that.
Again, thanks for the support. It's brightened my day.