carrying in huron/clinton metro parks???

This is a discussion on carrying in huron/clinton metro parks??? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; any fellow s,e, michigan members know if its legal to carry with cpl in these parks???? plan on doing some fishing this weekend at stoney ...

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Thread: carrying in huron/clinton metro parks???

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    carrying in huron/clinton metro parks???

    any fellow s,e, michigan members know if its legal
    to carry with cpl in these parks???? plan on doing
    some fishing this weekend at stoney creek.
    I think that thier county parks but havent been
    able to find any info. on weather its legal or not.
    thanks in advance for any info. you might have.
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    The parks are private property so they'd have to post. I've been to stoney creek and kensington and have not seen signage prohibiting, so I have carried. If they don't want us to carry it would be their responsibility to put up signs. I would not reccomend asking them directly, because they might reealize that they forgot to put up signs or something. I just keep it quiet, and act responsibly.

    They do have a web site. Their might be a list of park rules there, but I would think that they could only ask you to leave or disarm if there is no sign at the gate.
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    Member Array Aelbric's Avatar
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    First off, I am not a lawyer. As always, check with the local authorities before trusting your decisions to information obtained over the internet.

    That said, the Michigan State Police website says the following under their concealed pistol section:

    "4. Does my valid Concealed Pistol License allow me to carry a concealed pistol in a state park?
    Yes. MCL 324.504 states that the DNR cannot promulgate or enforce a rule that prohibits a ccw holder from carrying on property under the control of the DNR." (Source: http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html)

    Now, note that specifically states "under control of the DNR". The Metro Parks website states:

    "FIREARMS AND OTHER WEAPONS- No person shall possess or control any rifle, shotgun or other firearm, bow and arrow, slingshot, pellet gun, air rifle, fireworks, explosives, or other dangerous substances within the boundaries of any park, without written permission of the Authority; provided, that this rule shall not apply to any law enforcement officer who has been duly appointed by the government of the United States, the State of Michigan or any county, municipality other political subdivision of the State of Michigan; and provided, further that this section shall not prohibit a person from legally carrying firearms in accordance with state law, including transporting an unloaded shotgun in a case within the boundaries of Lake Erie or Metro Beach Metropark for the purpose of using Lake Erie or Metro Beach Metropark as access to a permitted hunting area." (Source: http://www.metroparks.com/global/rules_regs.php#)

    Their site is less clear as it does not specifically mention legal concealed weapons. It SEEMS like the State law is in effect here. I don't know if the entire Metro Park system is run by the DNR though. I would call and ask before doing it.

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    thanks Lbrombach, my wife and i were approched by dnr one time at stoney
    but that was before i got my cpl. showed her our lisences and off she went.
    thats why i wondered if its a county park or what. i guess i could lock pistol
    in lockbox in the truck,not like its a bad area.thanks again for your advise
    (SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
    the world coming too"

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    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    thanks aelbric, thats what i really like about this forum. lots of good info.
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    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glock27mark View Post
    thanks Lbrombach, my wife and i were approched by dnr one time at stoney
    but that was before i got my cpl. showed her our lisences and off she went.
    thats why i wondered if its a county park or what. i guess i could lock pistol
    in lockbox in the truck,not like its a bad area.thanks again for your advise
    Yeah, DNR still the king of the water.
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    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    The D.N.R. does not make laws in Michigan, and they have no control over concealed carry. Cities, townships, and counties also cannot change state law when it comes to your CPL.
    Les Baer 45
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  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Uhhh, true. I kinda meant that even though the parks are private the water is not, so the DNR still comes around looking for fishing licenses and such. My fingers don't always type everything my mind is thinking.
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    Member Array rlsmaritime's Avatar
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    How is it that you believe these parks are private? Are they not supported by tax dollars, operated by a board appointed by elected officials?

    I've never heard of "private" metro parks.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    i just talked to supervisor at metropark(stoneycreek),and because the park
    has a plus 2,5oo person seating venue,that my cpl is void inside the park.
    acording to msp pistol-free zones that applies to entertainment facility.
    didnt think a metro park was an entertainment facility.sounds like b.s. to me
    but if im wrong someone please correct me.thanks in avance.
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  12. #11
    Member Array Aelbric's Avatar
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    OK, now THAT sounds fishy.

    First, does Stony Creek have an entertainment venue that qualifies under Michigan law as a "gun-free zone" ()? The party/reception tent bills as holding 300 people. Statute reads that a Pistol Free area includes:

    "An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more". Clearly, unless there is a stadium or other facility I am unaware of, Stony Creek does not have such a thing.
    Source: http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123...0947--,00.html

    Second, if it applied to the entire park the total couldn't possibly exceed 1000 people even if you include the nature center, Party Tent, and golf course areas collectively, which is clearly not the intent of the statute.

    Third, if this was cumulative, it would pretty much invalidate every mall, park, beach and public area in the state used for recreation since capacity goes well over 2500 and they "Include" an entertainment venue.

    I would call the county sheriff to get a ruling on this one. You may have just contacted someone who didn't want to be held responsible for a yes answer.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlsmaritime@fuse.net View Post
    How is it that you believe these parks are private? Are they not supported by tax dollars, operated by a board appointed by elected officials?

    I've never heard of "private" metro parks.

    Apparantly my bad on the ownership. I thought I remembered something about when they made the dam that made kent lake in the 40s that it was a private endeavor. From the web site it does say that they were comissioned by legislature or some onnsense like that.

    Anyhow, the parks being not privately owned seems to simplify the problem. If you read the bold in this attorney generals' opinion (near the bottom), it says to me that parks don't count, except that portion of a park that is an amphitheater etc, etc. I say that the park superviser in misinformed and that you are good to go.

    Opinion No.7120
    December 4,2002
    CONCEALED WEAPONS:Outdoor park as “entertainment facility ” constituting gun--free zone established by
    Concealed Pistol Licensing Act
    FIREARMS:
    LAW ENFORCEMENT:
    MUNICIPALITIES:POLICE:
    A municipal outdoor recreation park does not,by itself,constitute an “entertainment facility ”within the meaning of section
    5o(1)(f)of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act,and thus is not a gun-free zone as established by that statute.
    Honorable Mike Kowall
    State Representative
    The Capitol
    Lansing,Michigan 48913
    You have asked whether a municipal outdoor recreation park,by itself,constitutes an “entertainment facility ”within the
    meaning of section 5o(1)(f)of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act that creates gun-free zones.
    We understand that by the use of the term “outdoor recreation park ”you mean a natural area of land and water,consisting
    of lawns,trees,gardens,picnic tables,baseball diamonds,tennis courts,ponds,lakes,or rivers.
    The Concealed Pistol Licensing Act,1927 PA 372,MCL 28.421 et seq ,regulates the possession and carrying of concealed
    pistols.The Act prohibits persons from carrying a concealed pistol unless they have been licensed in accordance with the provi-
    sions of that Act.Amendatory 2000 PA 381 made signi ficant changes to the Act.Section 5b(7)sets forth speci fic quali fications
    a person must possess in order to receive a license to carry a concealed pistol and further provides that a county concealed
    weapon licensing board “shall issue a license ” to an applicant who meets those requirements.The Act also provides that a
    person who is issued a license under the Act may carry a concealed pistol “anywhere in this state ”except in certain designated
    classes of locations listed in section 5o of the Act.Section 5c(2).Those excepted locations,commonly referred to as “gun free
    zones,” include the following::
    (f)An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more in-
    dividuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity
    of 2,500 or more individuals.
    The statutory term “entertainment facility ”is not de fined by the Legislature.The question therefore arises whether a munici-
    pal outdoor park,as described in your request,constitutes an entertainment facility for purposes of the gun-free zones created
    by section 5o(1)(f)of the Act.Words not de fined by the Legislature are to be given their generally understood meaning con-
    sistent with the intent of the Legislature.Royal Globe Ins Co v Frankenmuth Mutual Ins Co ,419 Mich 565,573;357 NW2d
    652 (1984).Courts will consult dictionaries to ascertain the meaning of unde fined statutory terms unless the legislative intent
    may be discerned from the statute itself.People v Stone ,463 Mich 558,563;621 NW2d 702 (2001).The term “entertainment ”
    is de fined as an act to divert,amuse or to cause someone ’s time to pass agreeably,such as a concert.Webster ’s Third New In-
    ternational Dictionary ,Unabridged (1964).The term “facility ”is de fined as something built or constructed to perform some
    particular function.Id .
    A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f)of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that
    the term “entertainment facility ”constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons,
    or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons.Since the
    Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed,such a facility could consist of a bandshell,
    amphitheater,or similar structure,provided it has the required,known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage
    above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.This reading of section 5o(1)(f)is supported by the
    legislative history of 2000 HB 4530,enacted as 2000 PA 231.Both House Legislative Analyses,HB 4530,June 8,1999,and
    January 4,2001,state that HB 4530 would “[p ]rohibit a licensee from carrying a concealed weapon in certain public places,
    No.7120 FI REARMS LAWS OF MI CHI GAN — OPI NI ONS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 208

    such as a school,theater,sports arena,library,or hospital.”There is no mention in either bill analysis that an outdoor recreation
    park,by itself,would constitute a gun-free zone.It is appropriate to rely on the legislative history because of the ambiguity in
    the statutory language.Luttrell v Dep ’t of Corr ,421 Mich 93,103;365 NW2d 74 (1985).
    While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act ’s list of gun-
    free zones,it chose not to do so.An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to
    a building or other structure.Accordingly,if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell,amphitheater,or similar structure
    that has the required seating capacity,that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f)of the Act.

    Finally,section 5o of the Act is a penal statute that must be strictly construed unless the Legislature indicates otherwise.
    MCL 750.2;People v Gilbert ,414 Mich 191,211;324 NW2d 834 (1982).There is nothing in the Concealed Pistol Licensing
    Act or in its legislative history to suggest that this statute be construed in a manner different from the plain language adopted
    by the Legislature.
    It is my opinion,therefore,that a municipal outdoor recreation park does not,by itself,constitute an “entertainment facility ”
    within the meaning of section 5o(1)(f)of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act,and thus is not a gun-free zone as established by
    that statute.

    JENNIFER M.GRANHOLM
    Attorney General
    So
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  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Thanks for the last post, I was looking for my link to it since I knew it existed as an A.G. opinon.
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    Member Array Philbert's Avatar
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    Post

    Nice work Mr. Brombach on post #12! That's it exactly and clearly..........the "ampitheatre" areas are the only ones off limits while the rest of the metropark are ok to carry.
    Wouldn't be a bad idea to make a copy of that AG opinion and have it with you in case some uninformed yahoo from the park tries to give you a hassle if you were "made" for some reason.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    well i thank you all for youre input on this matter.now sunday if dnr asks
    if im carrying, i can say yeah. i stringer full of fish. a perch/bluegill dinner
    is to much to pass up. thanks again
    (SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
    the world coming too"

    NRA LIFE MEMBER

    U.S. ARMY FT.SILL, OKLA.

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