LEOSA Hollowpoint carry

LEOSA Hollowpoint carry

This is a discussion on LEOSA Hollowpoint carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Do any states, other than NJ, have restrictions on hollowpoint carry? I am OK to carry hollowpoints in NJ but wondered if there was reverse ...

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Thread: LEOSA Hollowpoint carry

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Question LEOSA Hollowpoint carry

    Do any states, other than NJ, have restrictions on hollowpoint carry? I am OK to carry hollowpoints in NJ but wondered if there was reverse law in another state that would restrict me under LEOSA?
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    Senior Member Array press1280's Avatar
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    As far as I know in WV, there's no restrictions on hollowpoints. I have a pamphlet from VA (from 1998) "A Summary of Firearms Safety and Laws." Nothing about hollow points,period. I suspect in the Shall Issue states you're probably good to go.

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    Member Array dogrunner's Avatar
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    There is no case law on the subject and the issue of ammunition is not addressed in HR218.

    I'd suggest you try Police Magazine's forum for relevant discussion on the subject. In addition to the HP question the matter of hi-cap's is also a matter of concern.....LEOSA specifys that one must qualify with the type of firearm he'll carry....the question then becomes one of does the mag. capacity count as an integral part of that?

    As you can see, there's a LOT of unsettled law on the issue and I for one'd prefer to err on the side of caution. Sure, the local cops not likely to hassle you about what you're just carrying.....but if you'd be forced to use it then the decision is in the hands of prosecutors and anybody's guess applies.

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    Since just about everyone is issued ammo and qualifes with it, it would seem like that is what you need to carry.

    IRRC there is an exclusion for Police in the NJ law.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Since just about everyone is issued ammo and qualifes with it, it would seem like that is what you need to carry.
    Do you mean just the LEO's?

    For citizen CCW in Kansas we furnish our own ammo.

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    Yes, I mean LEO's.

    Just about all of the LEO's get ammo that is supplied from the respective depts. and they are madated by policy to use it and only it in their on and off duty weapons.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Member Array dogrunner's Avatar
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    Policy can't apply to retiree's that have the same authority to carry as currently employed officers. Even if that ammo is prescribed, what happens if an out of state officer is in New Jersey where doing such is illegal. Further, whats the situation w/ hi caps in N.Y.? Remember, both active and retired offiers must qualify w/ the piece they're going to use. What their legal status is in jurisdictions that forbid items such as those mentioned gets REAL problematic!

    Far as the hollowpoint issue goes, I believe that only N.J. prohibits them. The capacity issue is a larger problem.

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    I'm going to guess and say that an officer isnt going to pursue the matter if a "retired" officer is carrying what hes been carrying the last decade or so.

    I mean, whats the point ?

    I could be wrong, but I dont think that the restricitions on "highcaps" dont mean that you cant have or own one, it just means that new ones cant be sold there.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Member Array nikdfish's Avatar
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    The LEOSA "type" qualification requirement is strictly semi-auto vs. revolver. Qualify with a semi-auto & you are good to carry any (legal) semi-auto. Qualify with a 4" revolver & carry a snubbie if you like. I'm cool to carry the PF-9 or the 1911 under LEOSA even though my proficiency cert was with a P95-DC ...

    My understanding is that I still have to watch out for capacity & ammunition issues in some states since the statutes on simple possession of those items are not affected by the blanket pre-emption on concealed carry statutes and ordinances provided by LEOSA 2004. I believe that if those prohibitions were strictly confined to concealed carry situations, then they would have been pre-empted as well.

    Nick

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    The LEOSA "type" qualification requirement is strictly semi-auto vs. revolver. Qualify with a semi-auto & you are good to carry any (legal) semi-auto. Qualify with a 4" revolver & carry a snubbie if you like. I'm cool to carry the PF-9 or the 1911 under LEOS even though my proficiency cert was with a P95-DC
    This is inaccurate to some degree. The LEOSA mandates that you will follow the state's qualification guidelines either of the state where you currently reside or formally worked.

    In NJ, I am required to qualify with any firearm I would carry. That is plainly outlined in the AG Guidelines. While there is a "generally similar" clause, it is greatly restricted and left up to the department if they wish to allow it. Some states might be more liberal in this area but the requirements must be researched before moving ahead with the carry. I've seen many carry under the Retired NJ clause which qualified them for the LEOSA that have no clue as to the requirements. For that I fault the FI who did the qualifications. I issue a booklet and they sign that they have read it and understand it. Any questions can be answered at the qualification.

    In NJ, anyone coming from either out of state or a Retired NJ LE Officer must adhere to the hi-cap (over 15 rounds) and the hollow point restrictions. For that reason, I carry Federal Expanding FMJ rounds in my Glock 23 and Sig 220. The hi-cap area is not an issue for me.
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  11. #11
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    In NJ, anyone coming from either out of state or a Retired NJ LE Officer must adhere to the hi-cap (over 15 rounds) and the hollow point restrictions. For that reason, I carry Federal Expanding FMJ rounds in my Glock 23 and Sig 220. The hi-cap area is not an issue for me.
    Are you saying that an LEO that uses hollowpoint ammo that is issued to him in his duty pistol no good in NJ and had to abide by NJ law?

    I beg to differ. Federal law trumps state law just for this reason. If it didnt all 50 states could have different ammo restrictions. What would be the point of having a federal law?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Member Array dogrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikdfish View Post
    The LEOSA "type" qualification requirement is strictly semi-auto vs. revolver. Qualify with a semi-auto & you are good to carry any (legal) semi-auto. Qualify with a 4" revolver & carry a snubbie if you like. I'm cool to carry the PF-9 or the 1911 under LEOSA even though my proficiency cert was with a P95-DC ...

    My understanding is that I still have to watch out for capacity & ammunition issues in some states since the statutes on simple possession of those items are not affected by the blanket pre-emption on concealed carry statutes and ordinances provided by LEOSA 2004. I believe that if those prohibitions were strictly confined to concealed carry situations, then they would have been pre-empted as well.

    Nick
    Not quite. LEOSA states that one must qualify with the type of firearm he/she'l carry. It does NOT specify auto or revolver. Conceivably one could qualify with and carry an AR type as long as it was not a "machinegun", which is proscribed by that law.

    Personally, I believe one would prevail if arrested for the capacity/ammo issue if currently employed and issued same....That might not be the case with a retiree tho...even tho the active/retiree clauses are mirror images of each other.

    Point is that challenging such an arrest would be expensive and I for one wouldn't want to be in such jeopardy!

    One other point tho is that one State's AG's opinion can't affect a federal law or its application, nor can departmental policy. You might get disciplined for violating that policy but you could not be criminally charged.

  13. #13
    Member Array nikdfish's Avatar
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    In a LEOSA FAQ written by Craig E. Ferrell Jr., Deputy Director and Administrative General Counsel, Houston Police Department, Houston, Texas for the Police Chief magazine, the following point was included ...

    ... What does the law mean where it reads, “to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed weapon”?
    Section 926C(d)(1) and (2)(B) reference “the type of concealed weapon.” The type of firearm is interpreted as meaning either a semiautomatic handgun or a revolver. A law enforcement agency should list either semiautomatic handgun or revolver or both on identification cards issued to retirees who meet state-mandated qualification requirements. A retiree will need to demonstrate proficiency with each type of weapon he desires to carry (revolver or semiautomatic handgun or both) before it is listed on the identification. The Act does not restrict a retiree from carrying other weapons of the same type as the one for which he qualified.
    This is pretty much the consistant interpretation I have found in various other locations, including the forms used for LEOSA certification by more than one state. Forms often have an area to select (by circling or checkmark) from "type" choices consisting of auto, revolver or both. This is probably due to there being different testing requirements for revolvers & semi-auto's consistant with their differences in operating characteristics.

    Nick

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I'm going to guess and say that an officer isnt going to pursue the matter if a "retired" officer is carrying what hes been carrying the last decade or so.

    I mean, whats the point ?

    I could be wrong, but I dont think that the restricitions on "highcaps" dont mean that you cant have or own one, it just means that new ones cant be sold there.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    In MA, they intend to restrict retirees to the EXACT model/caliber gun that he/she qualifies with. They also will not allow Fed, "other" LEOs to qualify in-state, only retired FT MA Municipal POs or retired MA State Troopers. I was at the last hearings on the CMRs that they are creating and this is exactly the way that they are written. I testified my objections to it, but the chairperson of the committee and a few other members could care less. To quote (from memory, so may not be totally precise) one committee member from Boston PD "We can be more strict than Federal Law, we just can't be more lenient!" When pointed out that they are circumventing the Federal Law, the basic response is that this is intentional and they don't give a damn.

    Too bad FOP isn't paying attention to what's going on in MA. [FOP is almost unheard of inside MA LE circles.]
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