Civilian Combat Stats.

This is a discussion on Civilian Combat Stats. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by luvmy40 Not at all. I think the point to be taken here is that any armed resistance is probably enough to stop ...

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Thread: Civilian Combat Stats.

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Rotorflyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmy40 View Post
    Not at all.
    I think the point to be taken here is that any armed resistance is probably enough to stop any but the most depraved killers from taking a life.
    "Any gun is better than no gun"
    "Any training is better than no training"
    "Any resistance is better than rolling over and playing dead"
    In my mind this proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, the fallacy of the feel good liberal viewpoint of "Give them what they want and they'll go away." I have always known this but it is nice to have my belief represented by some facts. Unfortunately, we all know that the Antis will not let a little thing like the truth and hard proof sway their idiotic dogma.
    Exactly!
    I think the point of these specs wasn't to say we shouldn't get training, even if it does point out the fact that a lot of gun owners don't.

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  3. #17
    Member Array Brian D.'s Avatar
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    About the thread title...

    Okay this is not intended to be pot-stirring, but I have to ask: What is a "civilian"? Non-military, non-law enforcement, what? Please clarify.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Okay this is not intended to be pot-stirring, but I have to ask: What is a "civilian"? Non-military, non-law enforcement, what? Please clarify.
    While the article uses the term Armed Citizen (AC) I used the term civilian.
    I define civilian as non military and non sworn LEO.
    We already have enough stats as to the police--having one for civilians is a great find.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, what are we saying here? That because most folks who end up in armed encounters don't use cover, don't have flashlights/other tools available, don't have good situational awareness (let the BGs get on top of them), and don't have any training - that this is what we should aspire to? Are we using the fact that most people use bad tactics as justification for us to use bad tactics?
    The article simply states what has happened in the vast majority of civilian-BG confrontations. It's not suggesting or justifying anything, just telling it like it is.

    But I will reiterate what I've been saying for years. The NRA says, that guns are used over a million times a year in self-defense and in the vast majority of those cases, not a single shot is fired.

    Further, the majority of people involved in these incidents have little if any training, and probably even fewer carry a tactical light, and few practice with their handguns. And from what I've seen, those that do shoot occassionally, can't shoot worth a hoot.

    Consider the article stated that the vast majority didn't even have a gun on them - they had to go get it.

    But confrontations are not limited to 'average' etc., they are what they are. Those of us that train, we train for the worst and hope for the best.
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  6. #20
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    The hell with it, I am just going to position a claymore at the top of the stairs.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSIG View Post
    The hell with it, I am just going to position a claymore at the top of the stairs.
    I've done that but... the insurance company will not cover the collateral damage!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  8. #22
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I read that and was about to post about it too, so good to see it up....

    <clip>

    One interesting comment in #6- Number of shots fired was often one but an average of three. I find this a bit contradictory in that it suggests one shot has more relevance than more than one shot. However, since the average is three shots, there had to be essentially as many people shooting 5 shots as one in order to obtain a 3 shot average. I feel that one shot thing is very misleading.
    There is no reason to assume that there were as many occasions where more than 3 shots were fired as there were 1 or 2 shots fired. The average is simply the total number of shots fired divided by the number of incidents. For example, if there were 20 incidents in the data analyzed, 15 of them could be 1-shot incidents, 1 x 2-shots, 1 x 6-shots, 1 x 12-shots, and 1 x 25-shots. Total number of shots fired = 60 shots, divided by 20 incidents, gives an average of 3 shots per incident. This despite the fact that 1-shot incidents were overwhelmingly the most common.

    Obviously, I don't have the data in front of me, so I can't say that it isn't the case that there were in fact as many 5-shot incidents as there were 1-shot incidents. My only point is that an average of 3 shots doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot without knowing what the distribution of the shots / incident were...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  9. #23
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    dang.45,

    While that could be true, it cerrtainly is not true in context with "...overwelmingly used a .38 revolver" and the fact that there were no reloads. It is quite likely a large number of the civies used a 5 shot revolver. So the most that could be fired in one incident is 5 rounds.

    The statement I made that you quoted, was to point out that if the average is 3 shots, then some, we don't know how many, had to fire more than three. It was meant as a simplistic example to illustrate that some had to shoot more than 3 shots to have an overall 3 shot average. We simply don't have data to do much more than that.

    The significance is that the average number of shots fired does not represent a worst case scenario. It's along the lines of prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
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  10. #24
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Tangle-

    Sorry, I probably shouldn't have replied at all. I agree with the overall assessment of the article, especially the idea that, no matter what the "stats" show, any incident you or I might ever be in will be unique onto itself, and those stats will have no impact on how many rounds you or I may have to expend to protect ourselves & our families. The stats themselves are certainly interesting, and could possibly be used as the basis for pushing for more friendly gun laws in places that aren't so friendly right now, but they have no bearing on any particular situation...

    I think the reason I did reply was simply your use of the word "contradictory". There was nothing contradictory in the statement you referred to, but again, I didn't disagree with the thrust of your point. I tend to be a bit picky in the use of language sometimes, and that's my problem more than yours.

    I'm not a religious man, but I've always liked the saying, "Trust in God & tie up your camels," i.e. hope for the best, be prepared for the worst.

    Enjoy your evening!
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  11. #25
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    No problem Dang.45. Contradictory probably wasn't the best choice of words. I was in a hurry and nothing else came to mind so....

    I guess I was concerned that a statement that suggests 'often one round was fired' implied that "most of the time one shot will do." What I was seeing as a contradiction was with the reality, as you stated it well, "...those stats will have no impact on how many rounds you or I may have to expend to protect ourselves & our families." Exactly!

    Probably my perception of the meaning. As you are picky with the language, I'm a little picky about the widespread misperception that 'average' 3 rounds are generally what is needed in a civie gunfight. As you pointed out very well in your first post, and in the last one as well, there's no way to predict or know how many rounds it's gonna take. Well said!
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  12. #26
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    One thing I wonder about stats like these. Are most of these people untrained because those who train are more security conscious and less likely to be subject to attack? Not immune but less likely to be a victim. I notice people who take their defense seriously tend to have better secured homes. I wonder if this effects who ultimately becomes a crime statistic?
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    One thing I wonder about stats like these. Are most of these people untrained because those who train are more security conscious and less likely to be subject to attack? Not immune but less likely to be a victim. I notice people who take their defense seriously tend to have better secured homes. I wonder if this effects who ultimately becomes a crime statistic?
    Good point! Makes sense to me.

    Kind of ironic isn't it?
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I don't find these numbers surprising at all. I think something we need to keep in mind is that ( I don't have the exact numbers in front of me so forgive the generalizations, but feel free to correct if you have the stats!) firearms are present in about 50% of American homes. Permit holders represent less than 3% of the population. We are sort of the exception to the rule. Generally we all seem to be pretty much up to speed on layered security etc. I would expect that the lack of use of cover etc. is due to the fact that the vast majority of citizens, including non carrying gun owners have little to no tactical training. As far as the number of shots fired, we could scew that real quick. Although the majority were armed with .38 revolvers, all it takes is one or two people to lose it and empty their high cap and watch the numbers jump. I believe that if the original respondents were surveyed we would find permit holders in disproportionately low numbers due to the fact that we actively take the steps to make ourselves uninviting targets. Just my opinion here.
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  15. #29
    Member Array Dusty Miller's Avatar
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    In about 1987 I moved to the Modesto (CA) area from up north and within a month of my arrival I read of an incident in the local fish wrap that really caught my attention. An 83 yr. old woman shot and wounded an intruder and then held him until police arrived. My guess is that she had absolutely NO self-defense training whatsoever yet she was able to muster the mustard to put down an intruder and hold him for the police. I'm just very inclined to believe that expensive training serves mostly to keep the trainer financially afloat. From my perspective, if you have a gun handy (five in this house) and just don't get caught absolutely flat footed you will prevail in a confrontation with a BG. The more I read of civilian SD shootings the more I believe that being prepared and having the wherewithall to do what's gotta be done will carry the day.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    In about 1987 I moved to the Modesto (CA) area from up north and within a month of my arrival I read of an incident in the local fish wrap that really caught my attention. An 83 yr. old woman shot and wounded an intruder and then held him until police arrived. My guess is that she had absolutely NO self-defense training whatsoever yet she was able to muster the mustard to put down an intruder and hold him for the police. I'm just very inclined to believe that expensive training serves mostly to keep the trainer financially afloat. From my perspective, if you have a gun handy (five in this house) and just don't get caught absolutely flat footed you will prevail in a confrontation with a BG. The more I read of civilian SD shootings the more I believe that being prepared and having the wherewithall to do what's gotta be done will carry the day.
    Disagree entirely. Hope is not a method. One lucky 83 year old does not mean that you or I will be lucky. Discounting training based on this incident is foolhardy at best.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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