Civilian Combat Stats.

This is a discussion on Civilian Combat Stats. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm not so sure OPFOR, the 'stats' of the study Matthew posted strongly suggests the civies had little or no training and yet prevailed. Stats ...

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Thread: Civilian Combat Stats.

  1. #31
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    I'm not so sure OPFOR, the 'stats' of the study Matthew posted strongly suggests the civies had little or no training and yet prevailed. Stats from the NRA state that guns are used millions of times a year for self-defense and in over 90% of the incidents not a shot is fired.

    I'm not in any way saying training is not valuable, but this data does make one wonder just how 'necessary' it is. I myself have tons of training, so I'm sure not against training, but I have to admit, this research has raised some interesting issues.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    In about 1987 I moved to the Modesto (CA) area from up north and within a month of my arrival I read of an incident in the local fish wrap that really caught my attention. An 83 yr. old woman shot and wounded an intruder and then held him until police arrived. My guess is that she had absolutely NO self-defense training whatsoever yet she was able to muster the mustard to put down an intruder and hold him for the police. I'm just very inclined to believe that expensive training serves mostly to keep the trainer financially afloat. From my perspective, if you have a gun handy (five in this house) and just don't get caught absolutely flat footed you will prevail in a confrontation with a BG. The more I read of civilian SD shootings the more I believe that being prepared and having the wherewithall to do what's gotta be done will carry the day.
    Back when that woman was a child, guns were more accepted and most people were used to having firearms for protection. She very well could have had a lot of training from her family.

    Probably came as natural to her as riding a horse.

    +1 on CCers being less likely to be attacked. We are more aware of our surroundings, we avoid bad places when we can, and we probably don't carry ourselves like easy targets.

  4. #33
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    Well, if untrained GGs were just as good as BGs, there wouldn't be any murders, would there? No matter how many successes are out there, there are still plenty of failures, and failure here, for the most part, equals death. Sorry, I'm not counting on "stats" to save my life... Hell, the stats say you will never, ever be the victim of an attempted murder - yet we all carry anyway...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #34
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    perhaps more practice

    Perhaps the reason that a .38 is used is that it is the easiest to conceal, either when at home or at work. I have several handguns and prefer to carry a 9mm, but that is usually limited by my surroundings. I have practiced regularly and trained with all of my guns. I have a 9mm with me most of the time, but not always on my person. It is simply much easier to conceal a .38. I would imagine that if a situation occurred where I was forced to shoot in defense, I would probably use the .38 and never have time to retrieve another gun.

    It was stated that most incidents occurred at home or at work. Those are the places that it is most difficult to carry. At home I do not want my child to see me carrying and at work it is not acceptable.

    I am at home and the .38 is in my pocket now. When I go to bed the 9mm is the drawer safe next to my bed but the .38 is closer. At work the 9mm is usually locked in my car safe but the .38 is in my pocket.

    I am reading my own post and sound paranoid but it just makes sense to me. The first rule of gun fighting is: "Have a gun". I don't want to be in a gunfight, but if I am, I pray I have a gun and that I have trained to use it correctly in a defensive situation.

    I also believe that situational awareness play a large role in preventing these type of incidents. Perhaps the numbers get swayed by people who do not practice, study and pay attention.

    The fact that most incidents are over in one shot but the average is three makes me thing that some people practice enough and most use all five shots and never practice at all.

    Just my thoughts

  6. #35
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    I'm not so sure about that. Before I took all the training I've had, I would have figured one shot would do. But training dictates shooting until the threat is not a threat which means I'd probably shoot more now than I would have before I was trained.

    The threat may be moving, only partially disclosed, may be pointing a gun at us and shooting, adrenaline will be pumping, and hands may be shaking. Why would it be surprising that under these conditions, not every shot is a hit or an effective hit?

    Also don't forget that in most of the cases, the civies DID NOT have a gun on them and had to go get it.

    OPFOR,
    The research shows the civies were minimally trained and they prevailed. We cannot conclude that not being trained is the best approach, nor can we deny that untrained people with guns performed much better than we thought they would/could.
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  7. #36
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    I can't contradict the info posted.

    Seems like the "typical" situation that these stats would indicate is at home or in bed with an intruder.


    But you can't forget there is life outside of those bounds. I sure wouldn't carry a 3-round gun or forget about my night sights - or any good practice for that matter.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    OPFOR,
    The research shows the civies were minimally trained and they prevailed. We cannot conclude that not being trained is the best approach, nor can we deny that untrained people with guns performed much better than we thought they would/could.
    Perhaps I'm missing something...This is only a study of "wins" for the GGs, right? If that is indeed the case, then we can only determine that these untrained GGs prevailed. We can further determine that many of the untrained GGs who didn't prevail (and we have no idea how many of them there are, or how their numbers compare) are on Boot Hill right now...
    Last edited by OPFOR; November 13th, 2007 at 09:32 AM.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #38
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    One thing this tells me is:

    ALWAYS CARRY AT HOME!
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    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    I'm just very inclined to believe that expensive training serves mostly to keep the trainer financially afloat. From my perspective, if you have a gun handy (five in this house) and just don't get caught absolutely flat footed you will prevail in a confrontation with a BG. The more I read of civilian SD shootings the more I believe that being prepared and having the wherewithall to do what's gotta be done will carry the day.
    It's only smart to get some training if you can afford it.

    You can correct me if I'm wrong Dusty, but I think you're probably alluding to the Delta Force type training you see so much of on one particular web site. I don't know that I will ever need any defensive AK training utilizing my bug out bag.

    But I think some force on force training and some point shooting training and practice, practice, practice, may one day help save the day. It certainly won't be a hindrance.
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  11. #40
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    I'm not in any way saying training is not valuable, but this data does make one wonder just how 'necessary' it is.
    I watch members and non-members alike come into my club to shoot. Way too many have no idea what they are doing, nor do the follow the basic rules of safety. Many of these people have carry permit yet do not have clue one what they are doing.

    Getting a permit only opens you up to a world of responsibility and potential liability. Not knowing what you are doing will only serve to possibly ruin both yours and your families lives. While safe and competent operation of whatever firearm you chose to carry is important, the overview or how to carry and when, and the laws you will be held accountable to are just as important. Cost is minimal. Our club charges sixty dollars per course and it is well worth it. Many other clubs offer training at the same rates as the education of the firearm owner is more important than making a profit.

    The time to learn what can happen to a firearm's owner is not when you are served the subpoena for the first of possibly many depositions and maybe a long drawn out court case.

    Lastly, while scenarios and the like have their place, do not get lulled into the false sense of security that you will be able to handle that scenario when it comes and get a false sense of confidence. Hopefully you never find out, but if it comes, it will not be even close to what you envisioned. It will probably be quick and totally unexpected. The point is, be flexible and be able to think quickly, adapting to the situation at is unfolds. It's all well and good to pick apart these scenarios here over a matter of days. Try to get the answer right in two or three seconds.
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  12. #41
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    Wow, so we have some here that believe training isn't important as long as you want to win a fight. We have a notion that cover isn't needed because these people didn't use it. And hey, you'll have time to get to the lights, so don't worry about a flashlight.

    When I read the OP I was thinking that it was a good read and that I might have to go buy the magazine for the entire article. But now I'm wondering if it wasn't irresponsible. People seem to be taking the wrong things from the evidence. What it tells me is:

    - Be more prepared than the average person. Being involved in a shooting in your own home at contact distances is unacceptable.
    - Consider practicing getting to cover when you hear the bump in the night, many people are failing to use cover when fighting.
    - Since nobody used a flashlight, maybe it would be best to get night sights put on all the guns that someone in my home may use for defensive purposes.
    - BGs seem to give up pretty easily- because one shot from a .38 isn't a show stopper physiologically in most instances.
    - If all of these people managed to luck their way through gun fights, I need to train more- because that same luck may ride on the BGs shoulders if I ever end up in a gunfight.
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  13. #42
    Senior Member Array rljohns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    While the article uses the term Armed Citizen (AC) I used the term civilian.
    I define civilian as non military and non sworn LEO.
    We already have enough stats as to the police--having one for civilians is a great find.
    A sworn LEO is a Civilian!!!!! That is an extreme pet peeve of mine. If a LEO was not a Civilian we are under martial LAW!!

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array rljohns's Avatar
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    I think the point of the article is that a Armed Civilian is any non-military, non-SWAT, non-LEO operation and would include an off-duty military or LEO. Basically anyone in a non-prepared (intentionally on guard) state.

  15. #44
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    That pretty much confirms what most of us have either known or suspected for a long time.

    Sounds about right to me. But I'll still take all the training I can get over not being trained at all any day.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    That pretty much confirms what most of us have either known or suspected for a long time.

    Sounds about right to me. But I'll still take all the training I can get over not being trained at all any day.
    I agree..but the EXACT type of training is now the major question.
    Does someone really need the ninja skills of a Delta/SEAL warrior?
    Or 10 different ways to clear a malfunction?
    Or the long range precision of a competition master?
    Yes..training junkies such as myself will always seek out more.
    But for the typical gun owner just how much--and what type--of training is enough?
    IMHO take these stats and then decide to train for the situation that you will most likely encounter.
    And stay flexible enough to adapt to the ones which are the exception to the norm.
    Remember that nobody can train for every possibility that exists under the sun.
    Some adaptability will quite often be a factor.

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