Civilian Combat Stats. - Page 4

Civilian Combat Stats.

This is a discussion on Civilian Combat Stats. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think we're reading way more into posts than was intended. While some have indicated that a lot of training is not necessary, I don't ...

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Thread: Civilian Combat Stats.

  1. #46
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    I think we're reading way more into posts than was intended. While some have indicated that a lot of training is not necessary, I don't see that to mean training is not helpful.

    What we have is two situations: those that buy a gun because they have a perceived need for protection but cannot afford expensive training and those that have a gun(s) and can afford expensive training.

    The facts, not opinions, are that a very large number of people, in the millions per year, have successfully defended themselves with a gun with minimal training.

    What we don't know at this point is how many times a civie tried to defend themselves with a gun and were not successful but would have been successful if they had had some training. But some training (some as opposed to none or a weeks worth at a school) may not help at all against ambushes, assaults on a sleeping person, etc.

    Then there's the perception that awareness born from training circumvents deadly confrontations from the start. And I think there's truth to that. But taken to the 'limit', if maximum training gives us the capability to avoid confrontations, then we won't need to carry a gun, because we will be able to evade and escape.

    It really comes down to simply this: Is a person better off with a gun and little training or better off without a gun? From the past performance indicated by findings in the article, and according to the study that shows guns are used over a million times a year in self-defense, it is strongly suggested that people with guns and little training are doing quite well.

    Because I shoot so frequently at a public indoor range, I see lots of people shoot. Most simply can't shoot. I think that fully agrees with rscalzo's observations, "Way too many have no idea what they are doing, nor do the follow the basic rules of safety. Many of these people have carry permit yet do not have clue one what they are doing."

    While I fully agree with his observations because I see the same thing myself, it is undeniably working. We are not seeing large percentages of accidents with firearms that the massive numbers of gun ownership would imply. And we are seeing the huge successes of untrained persons successfully defending themselves.
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  2. #47
    Member Array PeterCartwright's Avatar
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    The stats listed seem to confirm Taurus' marketing of the .45/.410 "The Judge", huh! Seems like the perfect tool to repel boarders whether at home, business or vehicle when hostile encounters are most likely to be "from here to there". And no, I don't own one.

  3. #48
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    One of the most important, and least discussed, aspect of the study is the distance of the encounter: 10 feet or less, most 6 feet to 10 feet.

    Now with that in mind, being able to shoot a grouping from a bench at 25 yards pretty much seems a waste of ammo. Why not concentrate your range time at 7 yards or less? You may also want to try some shoot-from-the-waist at about 3 feet.

    6 to 10 feet is not much distance. But if you haven't practiced at the short distance fully free handed, you may be surprised at how often you will miss your intended target.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Perhaps I'm missing something...This is only a study of "wins" for the GGs, right? If that is indeed the case, then we can only determine that these untrained GGs prevailed. We can further determine that many of the untrained GGs who didn't prevail (and we have no idea how many of them there are, or how there numbers compare) are on Boot Hill right now...
    Exactly so. There's been some discussion of this on another board, by someone who's spoken to the author. The stats mostly come from areas with little or no CCW, so pretty much by definition, all defensive gunfights would have to be at the home or bz.

    Note that the time frame shrinks and the relative advatnage of the home-owner disappears when you add in street encounters.

    More training = able to prevail in a wider range of circumstances = a higher rate of survival.

  5. #50
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    Perhaps I am reading too much into it, or my comments are coming across wrong. I don't believe that the average armed citizen needs to be able to fast rope onto the roof of his house, perform an explosive entry, and flash-bang and clear his split level ranch. I'm just saying that training in the basic mechanics of his firearm, the laws of his state on the use of deadly force, and on basic tactics will go a long, long way in helping you survive a gunfight. Light, cover, movement, situational awareness, layered security in your home, etc. are all important things that can only help you when the SHTF. Stats be danged, "luck" is for Vegas... Training is for everything else.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #51
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    I'm looking at the article right now and the author states:

    "Location of assault - Most frequently occurred in a residence, next most likely location was a place of business."

    And in the article he says, "To my surprise, I learned that the armed citizen was most likely to be attacked in their home as opposed to on the street or in their vehicle."

    That surely reads like, and strongly implies that ALL encounters were accounted for - the street, the home, and the business place and the attacks are occurring most frequently in the home.

    I don't see that luck has anything to do with this. Or, if it does, millions of people are being lucky every year. I think it comes down to, the civies are prepared, i.e. they have a gun, and are capable of shooting it at the threat. Notice that the article doesn't give any stats regarding how often the civie actually got a hit on the assailant. It does say some were hit, but it doesn't not indicate the frequency of hits.

    Thinking about it, if a BG is in your house and you shoot in his direction, I'd think he'd be inclined to leave if he could.
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  7. #52
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    I don't believe that the average armed citizen needs to be able to fast rope onto the roof of his house, perform an explosive entry, and flash-bang and clear his split level ranch.
    You said it perfectly. I see way too many people come into the range that can barely get the magazine in correctly and chamber a round. What will they do under pressure. I don't think anyone is saying that they must attend a thousand dollar course (but it would be nice) but at least get a basic idea of what to do in the case of a incident. Our club runs the NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home a few times a year. For sixty dollars, you get well over sixteen hours of training, much of it on the range. Add a few dollars for ammo and you still get a pretty good deal. For the same price we will be offering the NRA PP Outside the Home as soon as some logistic items are cleared up for the same price. We see not benefit to have untrained firearm;s owners out in the real world.

    Unfortunately, I saw way too many negative instances of use of a legally owned firearm in my line of work. Some but not all would have benefited from some basic training.
    Richard Scalzo, Capt.
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  8. #53
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    It was mentioned in the article that a number of these guys had local training, be it, for a CCW permit, or a familiarization course, which is a good thing. There's no implication whatsoever that I've read in this thread that implied high speed/low drag training was needed.

    But in CCW training, familiarization, etc., tactics such as room clearing (pieing corners, tactical flashlight manipulation, etc.) are generally not included. I think the question is that needed? I don't know. But according to the article, those in encounters in their home, with their guns off their person, with minimum training survived quite well.
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  9. #54
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    Well, let's look at this for a minute - where do you spend most of your time? In your home, most likely. After that, where do you spend most of your time? At work, most likely... Is it any wonder that you are more likely to have a problem in the place(s) where you spend most of your time?

    If they had broken it down to attacks by time spent in a particular location, we could draw better conclusions...By just saying "most occur in the home" we learn very little about the actual relative dangers of certain locations... It's just like saying most traffic accidents occur within 60 miles of the home - OF COURSE they do, most of us spend the vast majority of our time within 60 miles of our homes!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #55
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    I see no debate at all on where the attacks occurred. The most prominent issue seems to be how much training is needed.

    My last post was in response to, "...There's been some discussion of this on another board, by someone who's spoken to the author. The stats mostly come from areas with little or no CCW, so pretty much by definition, all defensive gunfights would have to be at the home or bz.

    Note that the time frame shrinks and the relative advatnage of the home-owner disappears when you add in street encounters."


    If it were true that the stats came from areas with "little or no CCW", why would the author state, "To my surprise, I learned that the armed citizen was most likely to be attacked in their home as opposed to on the street or in their vehicle."

    He's basically saying that he expected the data to indicate that most attacks occur outside the home. So, why did it surprise him to find they occurred inside the home?

    Training has many benefits, but so does owning a gun with minimal training. I'm not saying that people would be better off with minimal training than more training, but the facts show, people with minimal training are doing very well.

    And, no, minimal training will not conquer every encounter and neither will more training. But, I agree that more training, depending on what kind of training it is, may serve the person better depending on the particular incident they are involved in.
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  11. #56
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    If it were true that the stats came from areas with "little or no CCW", why would the author state, "To my surprise, I learned that the armed citizen was most likely to be attacked in their home as opposed to on the street or in their vehicle."

    He's basically saying that he expected the data to indicate that most attacks occur outside the home. So, why did it surprise him to find they occurred inside the home?
    Beats me. I report; you decide. Actually, the posts could be read as "CCW area but almost no one carries" as opposed to a no-CCW state.

    Note that the stats are better for those who DO train. E.g., Tom Givens keeps tabs on all his students and has compiled a small but interesting collection of DGU events over the years.

  12. #57
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    What stats are you referring to that indicate those that train do better?

    It sure makes sense, but in what way do they do better?
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  13. #58
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    What stats are you referring to that indicate those that train do better?

    It sure makes sense, but in what way do they do better?
    As I said, Tom Givens kept track of his former students. Over 40 had been in gunfights after training with him. 40 is not a large statistical number, yet some things could be gleaned, such as a MUCH higher rate of success and hit ratio among the well trained. I won't reprint Tom Given's post since I didn't get permission, but I did get permission from another instructor to reprint his post, summarizing what he and TG agreed are the observations to be seen:

    I'm not Tom, but he and I have discussed this stuff at length and I have taken notes on it. Some of the things I got from both the discussions and seeing his presentation three times now.....

    1. Pay attention and really bad things can be preempted. In most cases if you pick up on the threat in advance your options are a lot more numerous than if you are walking around head in the clouds. Not every fight will be a fist fight first....at least not if you see trouble coming and don't dither. Now, if you work a job where you are surrounded by scum and likely to get assaulted(mostly under cover work), then yes the odds of a hands on encounter just went through the roof. But if you are just out at the mall or at the gas station, you really should pay attention so you pick up on these folks as they approach you, don't wait until they have you in a headlock to respond!

    2. Do not hesitate. In all of the shootings that are in the presentation the good guys did not try to rationalize what they saw. They immediately (or as soon as possible) got their gun out and did what needed doing.In one the Good guy was not able to immediaitely draw his gun, but as soon as the opportunity presented itself he drew his pistol and shot BOTH of his assailants multple times.

    3. Be able to hit what you aim at at more than 10 feet away. One shooting was at 20 yards. The first clue that the fight was on was when the bad guy's first bullet zipped past the good guy from across the street! If you can't hit what you aim at ...you can't hit what you aim at. The bumpy thing on the front of the slide is there for a reason.

    4. Do not panic. I know some of you are saying "thank you Captain Obvious for that little jewel." But seriously. The reason Tom's students are so successful is that they DON'T PANIC and they do what they have been trained to do without questioning it in the heat of the moment.Part of that is Tom tells you "Bad stuff happens. If you think it only happens to 'other people' remember... YOU ARE OTHER PEOPLE to everyone else in the world!" So WHEN it happens ... deal with it".

    One guy drew his pistol and scored 11 hits in about 2.5 seconds on the BG with his girlfriend (or wife?) within close proximity of the bad guy. I doubt he gave much thought to " oh no this can't be happening to me" Why would anyone want to hurt us?" or "uh oh, what if I miss". He just did what needed to be done. Now, is that a function of KNOWING they live in the "wild west" as opposed to a sleepy rural New England town? Who knows. Maybe going about in a state of "I know it is gonna happen sooner or later" causes one to get into the game faster than those who think "it will never happen here". But that is a discussion for a later time, but doing something decisive NOW is what seems to win these encounters.

    5. Sudden lateral movement by the good guy coupled with seeing a gun pointed at them restarts the BGs OODA loop big time. In one of the shootings (caught on video) you can see the facial reaction on the BG as the lady steps off the X and brings the gun up. You don't need closed captioning to figure out what he is thinking.

    6. If there are multiple bad guys (and most reports seem to indicate that trend) then a low capacity pistol is marginal. If you don't like reading that then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not kicking anyone's pet goldfish here, but an 8 shot pistol was shot to slidelock in one case and the 2nd BG was still on his feet. Fortunately after being shot twice he decided on footwork over fighting and ran out of the house and down the street before he fell down, but a 5 shot J frame would likely not have solved that 2 on 1 problem. Fortunately the BG did not decide he was now going to finish off the good guy. Fortunate because the good guy's gun was now empty ....The good guy in that case now carries a higher capacity pistol. Again, I'm not saying YOU WILL DIE if all you carry is a J frame. I am saying you are at a mathematical disadvantage if the Bg brings along a friend or two.

    Most of this stuff is commom sense, but unfortunately this business and this hobby/ vocation/pass time/whatever it is to us is often riddled with BS that is passed on by gunshop commandos or with good info that is just not applied in proper context. Context is the key. Can you always see it coming ? No. Everyone gets careless, or sick or tired. Will it NEVER be a fist fight that becomes a gun fight if you just pay attention? Of course not, anything can happen especially when careless , tired , or sick (or if you work in close proximity to people who want to beat your ass and steal your stuff). But if you pay attention, have made up your mind you are going to win, know how to run your gun without having to read the manual mid fight, can hit what you shoot at, and when you decide to go you commit with over whelming violence on the bg then your chances are pretty good.....even in Memphis.

  14. #59
    Member Array Angel in San Antonio's Avatar
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    No you goof, only that in the heat of the moment, you have to be ready, and it's nice to have a flashlight and other stuff, but the BG comes unexpectantly, and doesn't call to make sure you have your flashlight/other tools available, oh and lets hope he reminds you to take cover also....

  15. #60
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    it's nice to have a flashlight
    Yes it is as years back a homeowner awoke and shot and killed his niece who was returning home.
    Richard Scalzo, Capt.
    Secaucus PD
    Secaucus, NJ
    Retired !!!!

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