Civilian Combat Stats.

This is a discussion on Civilian Combat Stats. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Interesting article on this by Ed Lovette in the Febuary issue of Combat Handguns. (From the author's own research.) !) Location--vast majority happen in the ...

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Thread: Civilian Combat Stats.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Civilian Combat Stats.

    Interesting article on this by Ed Lovette in the Febuary issue of Combat Handguns. (From the author's own research.)


    !) Location--vast majority happen in the victims home or place of business.

    2) Lighting Conditions--Victim usually has the chance to get the lights on.

    3) Distance--0-10 feet. Most between 6-10 feet.

    4) Duration---actual shooting was over in seconds or a fraction of seconds.

    5) Physical contact rarely involved but when it did was exceptionally violent.

    6) Number of shots fired was often one but an avjerage of three.

    7) Movement--movement was usually to retrieve the pistol and then to confirm the problem.
    There was no "pieing" or searching, no moving while shooting or lateral movement to avoid gunfire.

    8) Use of security equipment ( OC spray, knife, flashlight etc)..NONE!!!

    9) Use of Cover--Almost nonexistant.

    10) Firing positions---Shots fired by the Armed Citizen (AC) were most frequently from the standing position, several were on their back in bed, only one fired using the bed as cover.

    11) Type of Weapon Used.. AC overwelmingly used a .38 revolver.

    12) Response of Bad Guy When Shot---He most often stopped fighting and ran off, closely followed by stopping fighting and falling down. When the AC fired a contact shot into the bad guys torso/neck the fight was usually over very quickly.

    13) Verbal Exchange Between AC abd Bad Guy---Almost always.

    14) Training by AC---Overwelmingly none, followed by a small number who had taken a CCW course and a very small amount who had fired a handgun while in the military.

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  3. #2
    Member Array riverkeeper's Avatar
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    Interesting Info.

    Mostly Confirms stuff we've kinda suspected.

    It would be interesting to quantify how the events initiated.... eg. violent home invasions v quiet night break ins, car jacks, street robberies turned violent, arguments turned into assualt, previous rage directed toward a specific individual, etc. Outcome info too ... final status of AC and BG

    Close up and ugly.

    Will get a copy on Monday.

    And thanks for my signature too.
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  4. #3
    Senior Member Array SilenceDoGood's Avatar
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    good stuff.
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    Senior Member Array tankdriver's Avatar
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    I have said the following for years and kinda was po pooded

    In my CCW class years ago our TBI instructor said the following....

    FBI stats say the following.....

    conformational shootings usually are the following

    1 less than 6ft
    2 over in less than 4 seconds
    3 3 rounds spent.


    Nice to see another source say the samething.
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  6. #5
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    Interesting info...

    Stay armed...be cognizant of one's surroundings...stay safe!
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  7. #6
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    I think these stats point out that while all the scenarios that people keep bringing up are possible they are extremely rare. All the worry about extra magazines, tactical flashlights and night sights being involved are more worry than actual instances but the most interesting in the type of gun.

    I would like to see the time frame and locations that he used. Good find.

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    Make a habit of learning to fire from retention.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array Rossman's Avatar
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    Very interesting. Most conflicts appear to be in the small space of the home. This is the same things my CCW instructor mentioned.

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    I read that and was about to post about it too, so good to see it up.

    I found 7, 9, 10, and 14 very interesting. Other sources have told us for years that guns are used something like 1.5 million times a year for self-defense. In some high 90% of these, a shot is never fired; the mere presentation of the gun is enough.

    As this study shows, in the vast majority of cases the civies had little or no training. I'm not saying that's good; it's just the fact.

    A couple of things not mentioned in the opening post are - in the majority of the cases, the civie did not have his gun on his person. In most cases there was one assailant , with the two assailant category not far behind.

    Another thing was that they NEVER reloaded - not once. I've been saying for years that you'll finish the fight with what's in your gun. And hand in hand with that, none of them had to use a BUG - at least it wasn't mentioned in the article.

    One interesting comment in #6- Number of shots fired was often one but an average of three. I find this a bit contradictory in that it suggests one shot has more relevance than more than one shot. However, since the average is three shots, there had to be essentially as many people shooting 5 shots as one in order to obtain a 3 shot average. I feel that one shot thing is very misleading.
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    So, what are we saying here? That because most folks who end up in armed encounters don't use cover, don't have flashlights/other tools available, don't have good situational awareness (let the BGs get on top of them), and don't have any training - that this is what we should aspire to? Are we using the fact that most people use bad tactics as justification for us to use bad tactics?
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  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that so many did so well will minimal--if any--formal training.
    I am in the process of designing a home/business defense class ( a modified version of the NYS armed guard class that I have been teaching for several years) and I found this article to be most helpful.
    I agree with FN1910..
    So many classes deal with what could happen but, as this article hints at, is largely irrelevant.
    I still believe in the value of training, but more in line with good tactics, how to handle a bag guy at gunpoint, how to interact with responding police and WHEN to shoot/don't shoot.
    Mas Ayoob has been teaching this for years and something along these lines---as opposed to adopting Delta Force/SEAL methods--is where Joe/Jane citizen should be leaning towards.
    PS to Riverkeeper..nice signature!!!

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    Sounds about right.
    Fast, furious and unexpected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, what are we saying here? That because most folks who end up in armed encounters don't use cover, don't have flashlights/other tools available, don't have good situational awareness (let the BGs get on top of them), and don't have any training - that this is what we should aspire to? Are we using the fact that most people use bad tactics as justification for us to use bad tactics?
    I could not agree more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, what are we saying here? That because most folks who end up in armed encounters don't use cover, don't have flashlights/other tools available, don't have good situational awareness (let the BGs get on top of them), and don't have any training - that this is what we should aspire to? Are we using the fact that most people use bad tactics as justification for us to use bad tactics?
    Not at all.
    I think the point to be taken here is that any armed resistance is probably enough to stop any but the most depraved killers from taking a life.
    "Any gun is better than no gun"
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    In my mind this proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, the fallacy of the feel good liberal viewpoint of "Give them what they want and they'll go away." I have always known this but it is nice to have my belief represented by some facts. Unfortunately, we all know that the Antis will not let a little thing like the truth and hard proof sway their idiotic dogma.
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    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Interesting. Wow, Febuary's magazine already out in November.
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