A strange consideration? You tell me.

This is a discussion on A strange consideration? You tell me. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A child with a knife or gun will kill you just as dead as the worst ex-con fresh out of prison....

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Thread: A strange consideration? You tell me.

  1. #16
    Member Array ebd10's Avatar
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    A child with a knife or gun will kill you just as dead as the worst ex-con fresh out of prison.


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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    ebd10, Yessir re, Absofrekinlutely. We learned that real quick in SE Asia. The laws of combat state that....>>you pick up a weapon--your a combatant.----------

  4. #18
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    I watched a good man slowly kill himself from remorse from the killing he did in wartime. It was easy on my end to say, "you did what you had to do, don't keep punishing yourself for it." But he never could get over it, and it ate right through him. I don't want to end up there.

    Our empathy is what separates us from them. It makes us the good guys. We're the ones who care about our lives and the lives of our loved ones, and that's why we have carry permits. Their apathy is what makes us carry.

    There's a baby-faced 13 year-old walking over to cap you as his gang initiation. You have a split second to defend yourself by squeezing your own trigger, or pausing by seeing this young boy as a sympathetic lost youth. He's short and skinny, and you may even have a son his age. Will you allow yourself to be martyred to bring hard reality crashing down on his head and cause him to open his eyes and walk a straight path afterwards, or will the kid sneer, give you another in the back of the head just for kicks, and brag to his new friends?

    It's my nightmare that when I have to squeeze the trigger, it's not against a rapist or some giant, hell-bent crackhead, but some baby-faced kid thug like the one I described.

    So I harden myself to the reality that someone who wants to do me imminent harm is a person who is cold and apathetic, who'll take my body, kill me for my purse or my jewelry, or kill me just for "street cred." He's crossed the line from being a sympathetic, salvageable human to someone who must be stopped. He doesn't care about me. But I do. And it's me or him.

    I'll feel terrible if I take a life to save my own - a human being should never rejoice in the killing of another. But I'll have to realize that I wasn't the inhuman one and I did only what I had to do to preserve myself when there was no other way.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  5. #19
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    Betty - excellent sentiments - thank you
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  6. #20
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    In addition....

    I remember some antis telling me that they thought it was appalling that I, a female, the nurturing, cooing baby vessel, would dare carry a gun and take the life of someone else's baby.

    I figure if that baby's big enough to rob me, rape me and kill me, he outgrew scolding and needs to be told "no" in a tone of a higher caliber.

    I think the nurturing, cooing, baby vessel in me makes me all the more willing to defend myself and my loved ones. Kipling wrote something about the female of the species.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  7. #21
    Member Array Fjolnirsson's Avatar
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    Betty,

    Myself, I've found I have a switch(for lack of a better term) that clicks over when bad things happen. Fights, accidents, etc. My emotions...go away for a while. I may feel horrible after the fact, but during a fight, when I'm ending a threat, there are no feelings of sad, happy, etc.
    As for afterwards, I may feel a passing regret, but I agree with Betty's last post. If someone makes the decision to target myself or my family, whatever the consequences, they brought them on themselves.
    "Water can flow, or it can crash. Be like water, my friend."-Bruce Lee

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    "Luck, often enough, will save a man if his courage does hold."

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjolnirsson
    Betty,

    Myself, I've found I have a switch(for lack of a better term) that clicks over when bad things happen. Fights, accidents, etc. My emotions...go away for a while. I may feel horrible after the fact, but during a fight, when I'm ending a threat, there are no feelings of sad, happy, etc.
    As for afterwards, I may feel a passing regret, but I agree with Betty's last post. If someone makes the decision to target myself or my family, whatever the consequences, they brought them on themselves.
    I'm EXACTLY the same way. I'm cool through the crisis (I've seen a few) but I get the shakes later. You and Betty are prime examples of the SHEEP DOG and that is the very highest compliment I can pay. In fact durn near this entire site is full of sheepdogs! I guess that's why I like it here, so much. In case you don't know by now, here is what it means to be a sheepdog and the other types of critters in the world:

    http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/1..._hang_wit.html
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #23
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    Couldn't have said it better Betty. Next time someone uses the "it's appalling that a female would dare carry a gun and take the life of someone else's baby", ask them if they would use a gun to stop someone that was about to do their baby harm....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  10. #24
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    Next time someone uses the "it's appalling that a female would dare carry a gun and take the life of someone else's baby", ask them if they would use a gun to stop someone that was about to do their baby harm....
    Actually, I have, and the responses were jaw-droppers.

    "Quit watching so much TV."

    "I think you have a rape/mugging/murder fantasy problem."

    "Well, of course I would, but only because my primitive animal instincts took over, after which I would be remorseful."

    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  11. #25
    New Member Array mark greenfield's Avatar
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    Hello all i carry a firearm for two reasons to protect me and to protect my family. If god forbid the need would arize that i would have to fire my weapon in defince of me or my family then i will do so but the after math of the incident is not in my hands so why would i dwell on it. If this person lives or dies is up to god not me. I will not regret that i protected my loved ones for one second thats just the way i feel about it.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    What if

    If we all are the least bit lucky, none of us will ever be put in the position of feeling guilt, remorse or anger over having to take the life of another human being. I can tell you now that whether it was a drug crazed junkie in his 40's or a kid not old enough to drive trying to show his gang how "bad" he was, I'd feel bad about having to kill someone. Justifiable or not, taking the life of someone is traumatic for anyone with a drop of empathy, sympathy and just plain "soul". Maybe it's because I know people who died young (had a brother killed in an accident at 18), maybe it's because I have kids of my own and don't want to think of what it would be like if something happened to one of them, but I would have nightmares for a long time if I'm ever forced to end the life of another person. Hell, I still feel bad when I hit a squirrel or cat running across the road.

    That being said, if it came to a choice of them or me, I'll choose them as the one who dies. I can honestly say that while I would feel bad over doing it, that doesn't mean I wouldn't defend myself with deadly force if it came down to a choice between my own or my family's lives and someone else's. Maybe it's my 21 years in the military or maybe it's just cold, hard logic, but there are times when you do what must be done, like it or not, and live with the consequences when it's over. When the crap hit's the fan and it's you or them, the training (I hope we all train for the worst case scenario and hope it never comes) should kick in and we go on auto pilot. Don't think about what you're being forced to do but simply do what you need to do to survive, no more but no less.

    I flew in navy patrol planes with from four to over a dozen crew members. One of the things we were taught was if that plane ever went down, you work as a crew to get out of the wreckage and survive. However, it was drummed into our heads that once you got out, you NEVER went back into that plane for anyone or anything, period. Here's a quick story that I hope drives home a point. I transferred from a squadron and the crew I had flown with for several years in that squadron crashed into the north Pacific a few months later. After the initial panic and chaos was over it was discovered all but one crewman had gotten out. The pilot, who was also a good friend of his, went back for him. The man was severely injured and had been knocked unconscious in the crash. Sadly, while still trying to bring him out, the plane broke up and sank, drowning both men. While it was a brave thing the pilot did, he left behind a wife and two small daughters. There were now two widows because of his noble act instead of one as well as two children without a father. I felt sorry for both families since I'd spent time with all of them, but felt especially bad for the pilots wife because there was no real reason for her husband to have died. He died because he didn't follow the rules, follow his training or use his common sense. Instead, he listened to his emotions and decided to do something because he'd have felt guilty about letting someone else die while he lived.

    I think that's what many of us will have to face here if we ever have to use our weapons on someone, whatever the reason may be. That's when we need to remember why we bought a gun and carry it in the first place... to save our lives at the expense, if necessary, of another's. While it may be hard, and I hope to God it would be hard for any of us to kill another human being, if you don't think you can do it, then don't carry a gun. If you do find yourself in the almost indescribable position of killing someone else to save your life or the life of another, remind yourself it wasn't you who placed everyone in harms way, it wasn't you who acted with complete disregard for others and it wasn't you who placed someone in the position of having to end one life to save others.

  13. #27
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    Very well said, rachilders.

    Were you flying ASW missions? If so, when Prospector gets back in country, you guys would probably get along great. He retired with 22 years in the Navy running ASW missions, among other things....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty
    I figure if that baby's big enough to rob me, rape me and kill me, he outgrew scolding and needs to be told "no" in a tone of a higher caliber.
    Well said! (I really like the part I highlighted)

    I just finished reading Clint Smith's Reality Check column in the current issue of American Handgunner where he was discussing the same issue. One thing that he said makes a lot of sense. (I'm paraphrasing here)Basically, it was that we have to remember that if the day ever comes when you have to drop the hammer, it was the other guy's fault. YOU didn't set out that morning to shoot/stab/whatever someone, HE brought it upon himself by his actions. His death is on his own head.

    I can't say with certainty what my reaction would be to taking someone's life. However, I honestly don't think I'd have any major psychological problems afterward presuming it was a "good shooting." I think a lot of it has to do with mental conditioning/training. I approach my training, whether it's firearm, knife, or empty-hand, with the mentality that if I ever have to use the stuff, it's because me or someone close to me is in serious danger and it's either win or die. I don't see a lot of room in that thought process for sympathy for the piece of trash that caused the problem.

    Just my $0.02
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  15. #29
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    If someone jumps off a tall building and dies - consequences of their actions, their fault - can't blame gravity or the street.

    If they do something to make me end their life - I'd be same as gravity or street - not my fault - just the consequences of their actions \ their choice.
    For God, Family and Country!

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Army Cop, EXACTLY !!! As I have said,and it to me is very basic>>> A civilian that picks up a weapon is immediately turned into a combatant. They have been and will be targeted by me. My only hope is that it was a planely justifiable shooting. If so ---- remorse?----I will have NONE. The parents of the 15 year old that I just killed made me take care of the problem that they refused to. I WILL TELL THIS TO THEIR FACE ! Ask parents this to their face and see what kind of reaction you get. If your 15 year old son had the means,and was just about to shoot me or a family member would it be justifiable to kill them ?? Parents don't want to hear or even think about things like this. Understandable--- BUT---this is reality,this happens every day. Then ask,if you don't want me to shoot them, should I just stand there and let them shoot my wife ?? IMHO, some people have earned the right to be shot/killed. They are just bad. I do not want them walking the same earth that me and my family occupy. I will not spare them. I will be totally defensive. But very defensive. If those people point a weapon at me they will be killed. This is reality----- UNSUGARCOATED !!-----------

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