Why the gun is civilization.

This is a discussion on Why the gun is civilization. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I try not to post too much from the blogs i read , but this is worth mention and a link imho . Marko hit ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Why the gun is civilization.

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,133

    Why the gun is civilization.

    I try not to post too much from the blogs i read , but this is worth mention and a link imho . Marko hit a home run on this issue with a well reasoned blog post .

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender
    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
    Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

    If you agreed with anything here please visit his blog , this post can be found at http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com...ilization.html and if i am not mistaken clicking on the banner at the top will take you to the home page and latest posts .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Can't argue with what he says Bob - it's as we all know (I hope) simple logic.

    The anti's of course might take issue - emotion clouds almost all sensible judgement. We see it all the time.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array mocarryguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Heaven
    Posts
    578
    Nice piece, and thanks for posting.
    I know, I know, you are smarter than me..just ask you..

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    usa-southeast texas
    Posts
    1,646
    Good stuff

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,245
    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.
    In short: an armed society is a polite society.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #6
    Member Array ellerblr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    125
    It's interesting that this has come up again, either I've read this before, or I'm having the biggest case of deja vu that I can imagine. Either way, I think that there could be a third way of 'convincing' someone to be like minded with you. Money. It doesn't always allow you to change someone's mind, but it can definitely help. And I'm not suggesting that we rely on buying off muggers by any means, I just think that to put arguments into the two categories of logic and force is somewhat limited.

    my 2c...

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Making ammo.
    Posts
    3,039
    Saw that in a Dillon catalog not too long ago. Good read.

  9. #8
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fort Huachuca, AZ
    Posts
    453
    i agree with the overall message you have. i know what you are getting at, and you are right.

    however, just a couple of points of debate...

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction,
    ethics and morality have been debated since debate was invented...and we really haven't found any universal source of morality that everyone can agree on. also, any definition of
    "civilization" is pretty subjective. it could be argued that a moral and civilized society must contain violence.

    also, there are many ways to manipulate and threaten people, without addressing force or reason. i'd go as far to say that these other methods are the most important that we deal with today with the government gaining more and more power.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  10. #9
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    43,842
    Makes perfect sense to me, and I have difficulty with those who cannot except the logic...and there are many who don't...

    Thanks for the post!

    Stay armed...stay safe!
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array lacrosse50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    SW Ohio
    Posts
    1,283
    Always a good read when it provokes well thought out discourse. Unfortunately, emotion doesn't usually lend itself to thoughtful discourse, and emotion is a big part of the current topic.
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
    -Herbert Spencer

    NRA Life Member

  12. #11
    Ron
    Ron is offline
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Linn, Oregon
    Posts
    1,628
    That is essentially a Libertarian perspective, and IMO hard to refute. In fact, the only reason Governments can force us to do things against our will, things which are not "inherently" illegal, such as murder, for example, is because Goverment has a monopoly on the use of force. By that I mean, if you believe ,again for example, that the government has no legal or moral right to impose certain regulations on business, or to take away your right to own a gun,the government can enforce those regulations because they have a a monopoly on the use of force.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Making ammo.
    Posts
    3,039
    Quote Originally Posted by phaed View Post
    also, there are many ways to manipulate and threaten people, without addressing force or reason.
    Examples?

  14. #13
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    FL, The "Stand Your Ground' State
    Posts
    383
    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. <...> Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. .... .
    uh, not exactly dichotomous, unless you call Charity, or maybe you call it Love, a force. And this isn't a kissy sort of thing, it's the motivation for a soldier (sailor, airman, marine, coastie, cop, firefighter) to do something for a buddy or "civilian" and the sort of thing we didn't know we had in us when it comes to protecting family. We do what is unreasonable without coercion.

    I offer this as the principal reason many of us carry; we have no reasson to believe we will ever be threatened, and no one makes us wear a weapon anymore, but we feel motivated to defend ourselves and our families.

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Duisburg, Germany
    Posts
    754
    kuduos for that opus
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    2,753
    That's a good commentary. It calls to mind one of my favorite quotes: "All men are not created equal. Sam Colt made 'em that way."
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. The Gun Is Civilization.....
    By Old School in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: October 22nd, 2010, 10:42 PM
  2. The Gun Is Civilization
    By Night Flight in forum Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: September 19th, 2010, 11:51 PM
  3. Why the gun in civilization
    By mikiec in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: June 11th, 2010, 04:43 PM
  4. Why the Gun in Civilization?
    By sarg in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: February 8th, 2009, 12:58 AM
  5. Why The Gun is Civilization
    By 762 in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: August 1st, 2008, 12:14 PM