Corporate Firearms Policy - Page 2

Corporate Firearms Policy

This is a discussion on Corporate Firearms Policy within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This has been an interesting thread. I always heard that carry into posted buildings, was not criminal unless they asked you to leave, at which ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
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    This has been an interesting thread. I always heard that carry into posted buildings, was not criminal unless they asked you to leave, at which pointit becomes trespassing and you can be arrested.

    If those who say the company rules make it become trespassing and criminal, then why doesn't the same think apply to stores that have the Gun Buster signs? By the fact of the sign, you have been warned, just as the employe was warned.


  2. #17
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    That was what I was trying to clarify. It isn't considered trespass unless you are asked to leave. I contacted my local sheriff and local state police branch to confirm this information. They can fire you for violating company policy and ask you to leave the building. They said the police may be called, but in turn will leave when they find that there wasn't any laws broken. At the most you may possibly be charged with defiant trespass if you refuse to leave the building. If they fire you there really isn't a reason to stay anyway. If they freak out I would just leave the building to wait for the police to arrive then I would proceed to gather my personal belongings after they confirm that no laws were broken. That way I am out of the building when the police arrive and the company can't say I refused to leave the property.

    Reading further in the handbook I found the following statements:

    1. Subject to requirements of federal, state or local law

    2. The individual provisions of the Employee Handbook are simply guidelines, and ***** reserves sole discretion to interpret them and resolve any conflict between or among policies. ***** also reserves the right to change, delete, suspend, discontinue, or otherwise revise the Employee Handbook at any time for any reason, with or without notice.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcheinaman View Post
    2. The individual provisions of the Employee Handbook are simply guidelines, and ***** reserves sole discretion to interpret them and resolve any conflict between or among policies. ***** also reserves the right to change, delete, suspend, discontinue, or otherwise revise the Employee Handbook at any time for any reason, with or without notice.
    Wow...so they could have changed the policy to provide exception to people with permits and not told you??

    Because people with permits are not criminals, nor have they been criminals--and those are the people you want around your business.
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcheinaman View Post

    2. The individual provisions of the Employee Handbook are simply guidelines, and ***** reserves sole discretion to interpret them and resolve any conflict between or among policies. ***** also reserves the right to change, delete, suspend, discontinue, or otherwise revise the Employee Handbook at any time for any reason, with or without notice.
    That right there is is probably the most common employer mistake that is ever made and most employees do not even realize that it works in their favor.

    Always keep a copy of your original handbook. Try to acquire a copy of the current SOP. Then stay up to date with the changes, but don't neccessarily keep copies on hand unless it works to your advantage pertaining to an event. Then document instances where you notice the management acts contrary to SOP and the employee handbook. It happens all the time, and consequently the company is always changing policies without notifying anyone.

    This can help you show employee discrimination should there ever be an issue with your employment and the manager is trying to get you on a "rule" violation.

    This isn't legal advice persay, but I will tell you that it has worked for me in backing off a couple of overzealous supervisors who had it in mind to get rid of me years ago.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Defiant Trespass

    The way I interpreted the statute, Defiant Trespass is a CATEGORY of Criminal Trespass. Ergo, it is Criminal Trespass.

    That's why it is section B under the heading of code 3503.

    Dude, you really are running a risk interpreting the law as you see fit rather than finding out from a QUALIFIED source what it really is. I can guarantee you that this Forum does not count as qualified. All we can give you are opinions.

    Your Employer may be right, they may be wrong. But I'm more confident that they have had an attorney interpret that section than you have.

    Asking your local sheriff's office isn't going to get you the answer. Who exactly did you speak to? Were they qualified to answer a sticky legal point like that? Only a lawyer familiar with case law is going to be able to properly do that.

    Personally, I believe they would have a hard time making it stick, but I'm applying Texas common sense there. I've no idea what the case law is there. I think your employer is trying to use the law as it stands to make carry on their property illegal with the force of criminal law. I think it's a stretch, but why be the test case?

  6. #21
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    Fragman is making a whole lot of sense, I suggest you listen to him.
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  7. #22
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post
    The way I interpreted the statute, Defiant Trespass is a CATEGORY of Criminal Trespass. Ergo, it is Criminal Trespass.

    That's why it is section B under the heading of code 3503.

    Dude, you really are running a risk interpreting the law as you see fit rather than finding out from a QUALIFIED source what it really is. I can guarantee you that this Forum does not count as qualified. All we can give you are opinions.

    Your Employer may be right, they may be wrong. But I'm more confident that they have had an attorney interpret that section than you have.

    Asking your local sheriff's office isn't going to get you the answer. Who exactly did you speak to? Were they qualified to answer a sticky legal point like that? Only a lawyer familiar with case law is going to be able to properly do that.

    Personally, I believe they would have a hard time making it stick, but I'm applying Texas common sense there. I've no idea what the case law is there. I think your employer is trying to use the law as it stands to make carry on their property illegal with the force of criminal law. I think it's a stretch, but why be the test case?
    I'm not planing to be the test case. It isn't like I am gonna go into work and say "Hey everyone... look at me. I have a gun! Try to charge me with something." I am carrying concealed in defense of my life and that is what I intend to do. I encounter alot of shady areas and people during my workday and I intend on coming home alive each night. There was a similar case involving Walmart where the guy was charged as a defiant trespasser which is described as:

    1. A person commits the offense of defiant trespasser if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by actual communication to the actor.... 18 Pa. C.S.A. &#164; 3503(b)(1 )

    Most of my work is conducted in areas open to the public. Which can contribute to my defense:

    2. It is a defense to prosecution for defiant trespasser under this section that... the premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises.... 18 Pa. C.S.A. &#164; 3503 (c)(2)

    I am not breaking any law by violating a written policy. I am legally allowed, as an employee, to be on the property unless I am given verbal notice otherwise. Trespass is defined as someone who is not wanted on your property. Then they must be notified unless they are in violation of criminal trespass. Signs and policys carry no weight of law in the state of PA. As long as if I am asked to leave and I agree to leave, then I am with in the law.

    Regardless if it came down to someone actually finding out that I was carrying my weapon they must by law, verbally inform me of my trespass before I can be charged as a defiant trespasser. When they inform me of my trespass I will have an oppurtunity to leave the building. They can't just hide it in a paragraph somewhere in an employee handbook. I also seriously doubt any officer would look at the employee handbook and say... yup.. you violated the company's law. You must go to jail. They follow the state law. And in state law it does not say anything about corporate policy standing as law.

  8. #23
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    I don't think this would fly in MN. As you said companies cannot make up laws only rules that their employees are expected to abide by. Once asked to leave you have to refuse to leave before it becomes a violation of trespass law no matter what you signed with the company. I think only then would the police become involved. Now the company can of course fire you with or without cause.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    I don't think this would fly in MN. As you said companies cannot make up laws only rules that their employees are expected to abide by. Once asked to leave you have to refuse to leave before it becomes a violation of trespass law no matter what you signed with the company. I think only then would the police become involved. Now the company can of course fire you with or without cause.

    That is what I thought as well. Besides in the defiant trespass law it clearly states "notify by actual communication" not by writing.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Let me clear some points up for you.

    1) Writing IS actual communication.
    2) The cops don't decide whether or not you go to jail, the DA and the courts do. The cops just arrest and present evidence.

    The open to the public IS a defense. However, you said MOST of your work. So some of it is done in areas NOT open to the public, right?

    Also, the code you stated about Defiant Trespass (which we have now determined IS indeed Criminal Trespass) says

    A person commits the offense of defiant trespasser if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by actual communication to the actor

    OK. Key words here

    1) ENTER OR REMAINS. See that word OR? Its Enter OR Remain

    2) 'knowing he is not licensed or privileged'. You have signed the handbook AND posted on an internet forum that you know you are not permitted access with a firearm, Hence you know you are not PRIVILEGED

    3) Notice against trespass is given by actual communication to the actor. Thats the handbook, sport. You were clearly communicated to, You received the message and you're posting all over a forum about it.

    The No firearms signs don't have to carry legal weight. Those signs are for prohibiting carry of firearms. That isn't what they are intending to charge you with. They are trying to charge you with criminal trespass. That is, you are on their property despite being told, IN WRITING (an actual communication), that you are not permitted.

    Dude, you remind me of that guy in the speeding video thread on the LEO sub forum. So convinced the law is what he believes it SHOULD be rather than what it really IS.

    I'm not saying I am correct about my interpretation, but if I was in doubt, I wouldn't carry until I was sure. And that means VERIFY.

    Oh, and I should make it clear that I think the policy sucks. I don't agree with any of it, but what I an TRYING to tell you is that the law as you posted it can very easily be interpreted in their favor. That's why the statutes in and of themselves are just one part. Case law is the clincher.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array Joe R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I have no idea how PA law reads, I only know about Ohio... but its a fair bet that they are pretty much the same.

    Trespass does not become a trespass until the violater knows he is not welcome. You know that you are not welcome if you are armed.

    Criminal trespass is the same as above, except that you trespassed in order to commit another crime. If it is a crime to carry in a posted area in PA, then its criminal trespass.
    Or another example would be this; If I go in your backyard to steal your lawn mower its criminal trespass. If I go in your backyard to take a nap after you told me I was not to be there, thats trespassing.
    In PA, this situation is simple trespass. Unlike Ohio, there it is not a crime to ignore "No CCW" signs.

  12. #27
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    I would think that your employer has had a legal team or at the very least one lawyer write this section if not all of the employee handbook.

    I would suggest you
    1. follow the employee handbook.
    2. at least have a lawyer read it and give you his or her legal opinion.
    3. not play lawyer yourself and try to interpret the legal ramifications of breaking the rules yourself.

    And I agree with SIXTO, listen to FRAGGMAN, he really is making a ton of sense.
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  13. #28
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    As I understand it you carry at work and are concerned if it is a law violation as a opposed to a rule violation. Since among other things a rule violation gets you fired a law violation costs you your Concealed weapons permit. First as others have said this is the wrong place to to trust for legal advice IMO. Call a lawyer or at least your local state patrol office. Maybe consider getting the rule changed. Ask a gun rights group or lawyer to send them a letter about the rule with reasons why some people need to carry. Let them believe that if anyone gets attacked robbed or injured because they were defenseless due to compliance with the company rule the intend of those in the class they represent intend on suing them for damages. Or that they may be sued for civil right violations. Careful how you word that so it does not sound like a threat but rather an option on the table, if they force you to take that route. Explain that they can change the rule without setting upsetting any anti's by explaining that concealed means concealed if those with permits allow their guns to be seen they risk losing their permits so the anti's at work will never know the rule has changed. The rule change can simply say. In accordance with state law (cite the law) all weapons are strictly prohibited. Most states weapons laws provide an exception for concealed carry. Explain that any liability issues are covered no is required to go above and beyond state law. The anti's will think all weapon prohibited and those with CCW know better. PM me if you like for a copy of a letter we use at one work place that ended up changing their policy. Again remember all legal advise you get here is worth what you are paying for it.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    No, not really. They are saying that you are welcome on their property as long as you follow their rules. Their rules can be as restrictive as they wish, but they cant be less restrictive than the law. As an employee, you have agreed to follow their rules. You know what the rules are, and if you choose to ignore the rules you are now trespassing.
    Yes, but my understanding has always been that they'd have to call the cops (if you were refusing to leave) and then, you'd have to refuse to leave in the presence of a cop before you could be charged with trespassing. Isn't it just like it would be if you went shopping, armed, in a store that had a policy of no guns allowed? Otherwise, they could just call the cops after not saying anything to you, not giving you the opportunity to leave after your unwelcome had been articulated to you, and suddenly as soon as the cops arrive you're under arrest, and all they'd have to do is lie to the cops and claim that they'd told you to leave.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post
    Your Employer may be right, they may be wrong. But I'm more confident that they have had an attorney interpret that section than you have.
    Let's not forget that the city leaders of Washington, D.C. have attorneys currently telling them that there's actually no individual constitutional right to keep and bear arms, and that it's worthwhile to attempt to convince the SCOTUS of it. (One city councilwoman even said that the reason D.C. residents don't have RKBA is because D.C. is not a state, and thus constitutional protections don't apply to them!)

    Just because someone has attorneys does not mean that they're getting the best advice from those attorneys. The fact that the company retains lawyers proves exactly nothing.

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