Corporate Firearms Policy

This is a discussion on Corporate Firearms Policy within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My company has the following policy: Carrying a firearm and/or weapon onto Company property in violation of this Policy will be considered an act of ...

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Thread: Corporate Firearms Policy

  1. #1
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Corporate Firearms Policy

    My company has the following policy:

    Carrying a firearm and/or weapon onto Company property in violation of this Policy will be considered an act of criminal trespass and will be grounds for immediate removal from the Company property, and may cause the Company to refer the matter to the state and/or local police.

    Can they actually charge you with criminal trespass if your have a valid permit in Pennsylvania without asking you to leave? I was under the assumption that it isn't tresspasing until you refuse to leave the premises.

    Thoughts?

    I should mention that this company's main headquarters is located in Philadelphia.

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  3. #2
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    Yes, they can. They allow you onto their property under certain known circumstances and conditions. If you break those rules you likely signed that you read and understood them... well you broke the agreement.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Distinguished Member Array mavrik46's Avatar
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    Amen to what Sixto said. They own the property and can post it just like any other business. The company I work for has the same policy. I don't like it, but I gotta respect it. They will allow you to check a firearm at the guard shack as you enter the site, but they also ask that you not make a habit of it.

  5. #4
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Yes, they can. They allow you onto their property under certain known circumstances and conditions. If you break those rules you likely signed that you read and understood them... well you broke the agreement.
    Ok. I understand that I broke an agreement but that is sort of like saying the company can make up their own laws isn't it. So if it said that if I carry a firearm onto their property I will be charged with attempted murder it could legally be done? I mean they would have to follow state law just as i would right? No policy is above law. I am not being argumenative but just simply trying to clarify your response.

    Thanks.

  6. #5
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    No, not really. They are saying that you are welcome on their property as long as you follow their rules. Their rules can be as restrictive as they wish, but they cant be less restrictive than the law. As an employee, you have agreed to follow their rules. You know what the rules are, and if you choose to ignore the rules you are now trespassing.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Ok. I understaind that I ignored the rules. But say that I went to walmart and their policy was stamped on the middle of the door. I know their policy and I choose to ignore them. From my understanding under PA law that they could ask you to leave the building and if you refuse you are trespassing. I don't see how it would differ regardless if I am employed with them or not. As far as signing the company handbook I am aknowledging their rules and I am supposed to follow them. Sure they could fire me for violating a company policy but I don't understand how they could try and charge me with criminal trespass. Under PA law you do not have to disarm just because any corporate policy says so. But you must leave if asked to or you will be considered trespassing. Maybe I am wrong. I just want to see others opinions on the matter. Thanks for the responses so far.

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    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    They have made clear the conditions under which you have permission to enter the property. It is private property.

    So, what would you call entering private property without permission?

    In fact, what would you call entering private property, when you have been explicitly DENIED permission, in WRITING?

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    I have no idea how PA law reads, I only know about Ohio... but its a fair bet that they are pretty much the same.

    Trespass does not become a trespass until the violater knows he is not welcome. You know that you are not welcome if you are armed.

    Criminal trespass is the same as above, except that you trespassed in order to commit another crime. If it is a crime to carry in a posted area in PA, then its criminal trespass.
    Or another example would be this; If I go in your backyard to steal your lawn mower its criminal trespass. If I go in your backyard to take a nap after you told me I was not to be there, thats trespassing.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcheinaman View Post
    Ok. I understaind that I ignored the rules. But say that I went to walmart and their policy was stamped on the middle of the door. I know their policy and I choose to ignore them. From my understanding under PA law that they could ask you to leave the building and if you refuse you are trespassing. I don't see how it would differ regardless if I am employed with them or not. As far as signing the company handbook I am aknowledging their rules and I am supposed to follow them. Sure they could fire me for violating a company policy but I don't understand how they could try and charge me with criminal trespass. Under PA law you do not have to disarm just because any corporate policy says so. But you must leave if asked to or you will be considered trespassing. Maybe I am wrong. I just want to see others opinions on the matter. Thanks for the responses so far.
    1) They have been pre-emptive in the request to leave, so it IS trespassing already. they have already told you to not to enter.
    2) Many states exempt employers from the usual hoops a private property owner has to go through to prevent concealed carry on it's property.
    3) The thing about being asked to leave. Normally, that clause in the law is accompanied by an 'Or given notice in writing' or words to that effect. You have been given it.

    But, hey, don't take our word for it. Let your courts decide.

  11. #10
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I have no idea how PA law reads, I only know about Ohio... but its a fair bet that they are pretty much the same.

    Trespass does not become a trespass until the violater knows he is not welcome. You know that you are not welcome if you are armed.

    Criminal trespass is the same as above, except that you trespassed in order to commit another crime. If it is a crime to carry in a posted area in PA, then its criminal trespass.
    Or another example would be this; If I go in your backyard to steal your lawn mower its criminal trespass. If I go in your backyard to take a nap after you told me I was not to be there, thats trespassing.

    That was my point all along. It isn't a crime to carry on posted property in PA unless they ask you to leave and you refuse. That is why I do not see how they can try to charge you for criminal trespass. I can understand the trespass by itself but criminal trespass. Am I making any sense? My main concern is the criminal aspect that they are trying to imply.

  12. #11
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    yeah, you're making sense. I guess I cant answer the question for sure as I dont know PA law... I would guess they dont know the difference between criminal and regular old trespass.

    fragman did a much better job explaining it than I can...
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    It would make sense to me that they could fire you with just cause. They made the rules, you know them, disobedience could and probably should result in dismissal. It may be that the first time they would give you a warning in writing, but they have every right to set the rules, and fire those who do not submit.

    You as a condition of employment, and you must enter the property, accept the restrictions.
    If there are exceptions for an employee it should be spelled out or revealed when one queries appropriate officers in the company.

    If no exception is made for employees then obey or find another job.
    Best,
    Jerry

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    That sign is about as stupid as one saying "everyone is welcome as long as you aren't a gun owner or a criminal"
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  15. #14
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    This is the response I got from Steve on PAFOA

    The company's policy does not translate to criminal trespass;

    &#167; 3503. Criminal trespass.
    (a) Buildings and occupied structures.--
    (1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he:
    (i) enters, gains entry by subterfuge or surreptitiously remains in any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof; or
    (ii) breaks into any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof.
    (2) An offense under paragraph (1)(i) is a felony of the third degree, and an offense under paragraph (1)(ii) is a felony of the second degree.
    (3) As used in this subsection: "Breaks into." To gain entry by force, breaking, intimidation, unauthorized opening of locks, or through an opening not designed for human access.

    If asked to leave and you refuse, it is defiant trespass.....NOT criminal trespass;

    (b) Defiant trespasser.--
    (1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
    (i) actual communication to the actor;
    (ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
    (iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to exclude intruders;
    (iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at each entrance of school grounds that visitors are prohibited without authorization from a designated school, center or program official; or
    (v) an actual communication to the actor to leave school grounds as communicated by a school, center or program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement officer.
    (2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v) constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it is a summary offense.


    As the other poster said, the "no firearms" signs mean nothing. No firearms does not mean no trespassing. The company is using scare tactics to scare its employees into obeying their policy.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcheinaman View Post

    As the other poster said, the "no firearms" signs mean nothing. No firearms does not mean no trespassing. The company is using scare tactics to scare its employees into obeying their policy.
    Clearly they are doing that; but it does have a little bit of teeth, just not as much as they would lead you to believe.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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