Poll: When do you feel lethal force is justified? - Page 2

Poll: When do you feel lethal force is justified?

This is a discussion on Poll: When do you feel lethal force is justified? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HotGuns When I fear for my life. You didnt put that up there. Right. That's a fear, not a crime. This is ...

View Poll Results: When is your use of lethal force justified?

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  • Disrespectful glance, speech or behavior.

    4 2.26%
  • Highly insulting, lewd or disgusting behavior.

    2 1.13%
  • Furtive movement.

    0 0%
  • Theft, low-cost.

    5 2.82%
  • Theft, high-cost.

    3 1.69%
  • Burglary, including B&E to get there.

    32 18.08%
  • Threatening speech or behavior.

    8 4.52%
  • Assault and battery against someone else.

    27 15.25%
  • Assault and battery against you.

    43 24.29%
  • Robbery against someone else.

    5 2.82%
  • Robbery against you.

    6 3.39%
  • Rape.

    12 6.78%
  • Attempted Murder.

    25 14.12%
  • Murder.

    5 2.82%
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Thread: Poll: When do you feel lethal force is justified?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    When I fear for my life. You didnt put that up there.
    Right. That's a fear, not a crime. This is a poll with a list of specific crimes.

    A given crime will generally entail certain things. Any given situation will differ from another, of course. Imagining a garden-variety instance going down, each of us will have a different feeling on where the dividing line occurs. If that line is drawn based on insult over the criminal getting the better of you, or fear of harm, or fear of loss of life or crippling injury, or something else, so be it. Choose accordingly.

    I hear you, though. It's not easy to delineate a continuum of choices such that we can clearly see where people draw the line. In this poll, I felt that naming specific crimes would come closest to the goal of eliciting what people think.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    The poll is flawed, because it really should have allowed for multiple choice response.

    I would respond with lethal force against robbery, rape, attempted murder, etc., but also for theft, because I do not believe those who steal the product of others' work should be tolerated any more than those who steal lives.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    This is a tough one. I voted at burglary because it violates the Castle Doctrine thing. Although, I feel that perhaps assault and battery should come before it because you may or may not feel that your life is in danger.

    This is of course in compliance with my state's laws. If I could have the laws changed, I'd make lethal force useable when property crimes occur.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    The poll is flawed, because it really should have allowed for multiple choice response.
    Then it would have required an altered purpose. This poll's purpose seeks to find where, along a continuum of increasing violence (from low to high), a person would put the feet down, so to speak, and stand his/her ground. It assumes that a continuum reflects a reasonable measure of where the average person might draw the line, and that beyond the line is where that person is not prepared to allow crime to continue.

    The poll is as it is. Participate or not, to the extent you feel the approach identifies where you would draw the line.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array Joe R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The question simply asks folks to specify at what point one feels justified to employ lethal force to stop a crime.
    To me that point is theft.

    The state of Ohio does not agree, so therefore I do not act upon my conviction at that point.

    However, us law abiding citizens spend a great deal of our IRREPLACEABLE time working to obtain the material goods that keep our families clothed, fed, safe, and warm. And anyone who will steal what we have worked so hard to obtain deserves to be treated like the vermin that they are.

    I don't expect much agreement from others here, but that's where I stand

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    i go by my handy dandy ROE. i engage if someone has demonstrated hostile intent or a hostile act such as breaking into my house, aiming a weapon at me, or similar acts. i will also use lethal force to protect others in the same situations. and of course every mention of ROE has to include a scenario so:
    i am walking down the road and observe two men forceing a woman into an abandoned building where i've have heard of many rapes takeing place. what response is appropriate?

    i immediatly call the police and report what i have seen and that i am going to take a closer look i also ask if they have a number where i can update them on any developments. after this i approache the building hand on weapon ready to draw(i always carry red) and take a look. if the men are rapeing the woman i engage them preferably from an angle that keeps the woman out of the line of fire and report it to the police. otherwise remain hidden and report any developments to the police.

    fortunatly this scenario is very unlikly in my area and i am unlikly to have to react to it.
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
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  7. #22
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    I chose Assult/battary against another. This assumes an armed assult; be it gun. knife or Hand to hand. My real answer would be when I felt my or another's life was in danger.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Well, lets see. Not for theft, but if I go outside to tell the guy that my wife is calling the cops so stop stealing my car, then he draws a weapon then one might argue that the shootout was over a car. (I'd say its not about the car, but the lefties would). Hard too answer the poll.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupcake View Post
    if I go outside to tell the guy that my wife is calling the cops so stop stealing my car, then he draws a weapon then one might argue that the shootout was over a car.
    If shooting a criminal who is actively attempting your murder, I'd think it hard to claim that the car had anything to do with it.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; November 25th, 2007 at 10:19 PM. Reason: clarification
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #25
    Member Array LSCurrier's Avatar
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    I answered how I believe it should be - not what the laws of my state require.

    I selected:

    Theft, low-cost

    as I believe it is unreasonable to require honest people to submit to the will of criminals. Must I let a thief take what is mine because it falls below a certain dollar value even as I stand armed before him and have the means to apprehend him - and if necessary hurt (kill) him if he resists.

    I believe that by letting thieves get away with even the smallest of crimes we allow crime to happen rather than making a strong statement that crime is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    If a thief dies as a result of his actions then he has made the choice that got him what he received.

    NOTE: I will follow the laws of the state that I am in, but this is how I feel.

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    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Then it would have required an altered purpose. This poll's purpose seeks to find where, along a continuum of increasing violence (from low to high), a person would put the feet down, so to speak, and stand his/her ground.

    The poll is as it is. Participate or not, to the extent you feel the approach identifies where you would draw the line.
    I really just don't think that these things all lie along a linear continuum! That's all I was saying.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    I voted assault and battery against me BUT that depends on:

    --if I was in fear of my life/grievous bodily harm

    I would 9 times out of ten use lethal force to defend someone else who was in fear of their life/grievous bodily harm, but that would, like most cases, depend on the situation. If I didn't know the people and I stumbled upon it and didn't know what was happening--probably would call 911. BUT, if I saw the event unfold from start to attack then I would make the call then. There are a lot more variables in play when dealing with other people.

  13. #28
    Member Array ethereal's Avatar
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    Interesting poll - very thought provoking. But breaking it down by specific crime, Colorado's "Make my day" law says for Burgary/B&E/home invasion if any force is used, not matter how slight, you can defend yourself, your family, your home with deadly force without having to retreat first. Everything else requires a lot of luck after the smoke clears and best if you've got some sort of proof that you were in actual danger, had a reasonable fear of mortal/physical danger, and had no other options (some jurisdicitons being more reasonable than others).

    As I tell my kids: Nothing good happens after midnight & just because you have a right to be there, doesn't mean that's where you want to be. ie: "Use brain power before fire power" and avoid the bad guys & bad situations whenever possible.
    Protect your family. Reload. Call 911.

  14. #29
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    Scenarios are all different...
    I checked Burglary and B&E to get there...assuming it was my place...

    However, a certain disrespectful glance added to disrespectful behavior directed AT me, causing me to fear for my life...(depending upon the specific behavior)...could cause one to start at the beginning of the list.

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  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    IMO, no crime (in and of itself) warrants deadly force. Unless the crime is happening TO YOU, RIGHT NOW, and has reasonably put you in fear for your life/grave bodily injury, then you shouldn't kill. The State, after determining guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, is the only entity that can kill AFTER the crime. (Or am I misunderstanding the question?)
    RAPE? Of oneself or of another?
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

    "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." -Michael Savage

    GOOD Gun Control is being able to hit your target! -Myself

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