Michigan Church Carry

This is a discussion on Michigan Church Carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by grady What is your pastor's take on Luke 22.36? At the last supper, Jesus commanded his disciples to be armed. It was ...

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Thread: Michigan Church Carry

  1. #31
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    What is your pastor's take on Luke 22.36? At the last supper, Jesus commanded his disciples to be armed. It was a command, not a suggestion. He told them to take a sword with them, and if they didn't have one, to sell their cloak and buy a sword. A sword was the self-defense item of the day... in modern terms, IMO, Jesus would have said get a gun, and if you don't have one, sell your coat and buy one. Pretty strong words for me, especially as winter is coming on.

    Is your pastor going to follow all the commands of Jesus, or only certain chosen ones? How convenient it would be for me if I get to pick and choose which commands to follow...

    If your pastor has mentally sidestepped the passage in Luke, he may have bought into the whole "Jesus was a pacifist" theory. If he thinks Christians are immune to random acts of violence... Christians were slaughtered like animals at Columbine and Virginia Tech, as well as several church shootings.

    I agree with asking him what his plans are for an armed intruder in the building. If your pastor doesn't agree with you carrying, then you have a choice to make: trust in the goodness of the BG's to not shoot up a church, change churches, or carry concealed.

    As for me and my house, we are not going to be depending on the inherent goodness of BG's... not now, and not ever.
    I'd be careful using that quote from Luke if I were you. I have an Ecumenical Study Bible ("The New Oxford Annotated Bible, Revised Standard Version") which gives notes on how verses are typically interpreted. You can't just pick out verse 36 without including verse 38 as well - "And they said, 'Look, Lord, here are two swords.' And he said to them, 'It is enough.'"

    The note on verse 36 is - "The sword apparently meant to Jesus a preparation to live by one's own resources against hostility." The note on verse 38 is - "The natural meaning of v. 38 is that the disciples supposed he spoke of an actual sword, only to learn that two swords were sufficient for the while enterprise, i.e. were not to be used at all."

    Grady, while you and I believe that Jesus would not have advocated sitting by helplessly while an attacker took shots at people in a congregation (or anywhere else), your interpretation of Luke 22:36 is not one that is typically accepted within many denominations of Christianity.

    I think that newspaper clippings of other church shootings, along with evidence (preferably from the local police) on local levels of violence, coupled with the simple statement that you have taken upon yourself the protection of yourself & your loved ones, is probably the most effective way to approach your minister.

    Good luck!
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    Are you permitted in MI to lock the gun in your car in the parking lot?
    Yes, the pistol free areas do not include the parking lots of any of the listed places.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    I'd be careful using that quote from Luke if I were you. I have an Ecumenical Study Bible ("The New Oxford Annotated Bible, Revised Standard Version") which gives notes on how verses are typically interpreted. You can't just pick out verse 36 without including verse 38 as well - "And they said, 'Look, Lord, here are two swords.' And he said to them, 'It is enough.'"

    The note on verse 36 is - "The sword apparently meant to Jesus a preparation to live by one's own resources against hostility." The note on verse 38 is - "The natural meaning of v. 38 is that the disciples supposed he spoke of an actual sword, only to learn that two swords were sufficient for the while enterprise, i.e. were not to be used at all."

    Grady, while you and I believe that Jesus would not have advocated sitting by helplessly while an attacker took shots at people in a congregation (or anywhere else), your interpretation of Luke 22:36 is not one that is typically accepted within many denominations of Christianity.

    I think that newspaper clippings of other church shootings, along with evidence (preferably from the local police) on local levels of violence, coupled with the simple statement that you have taken upon yourself the protection of yourself & your loved ones, is probably the most effective way to approach your minister.

    Good luck!
    While potentially helpful, I would not give the same weight to the notes in any study Bible as I would the verses themselves. And I am aware of verse 38, where the mention of two swords "is enough." Personally, I think 2/12's of a congregation being armed (2 swords, 12 disciples) would be a ready defense against an intruder with a gun, probably a higher percentage of armed people than is in most churches today. Obtaining actual swords would fit the description of "a preparation to live by one's own resources against hostility" that you quoted from the notes of verse 36.

    If you are saying Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword (even sell their cloak if needed), but didn't mean a real sword, or didn't intend for them to ever use it if needed... then we have a parting of the ways on our interpretation methods. If that is what the notes are saying, then I have serious misgivings about the authors of the notes you mentioned. "Buy a sword" means to me to "buy a sword"... real, not figurative (sell your real cloak, not your figurative cloak), and buy it for a reason, not just to carry around.

    As far as my interpretation of Luke 22:36 not being one that is typically accepted by many denominations of Christianity, I don't base many decision I come to (other than the personal experiences of others with certain types of firearms and ammunition ) on group or majority decisions. Denominations are not infallible.

    Whether or not the notes in your Ecumenical Study Bible can be agreed upon or not, how about another angle...

    Peter carried a sword. He was carrying in the garden the night Jesus was arrested. We have no mention of Jesus criticizing Peter for carrying. Surely Jesus knew about it, if one accepts the omnipotence of Jesus. The only rebuke Peter received was from trying to take on a group of probably well-armed soldiers. Jesus was not against Peter carrying a weapon, only against Peter being injured or killed on the night in question. Jesus had much greater plans for Peter.

    Based on everything I've read in the Bible itself, Jesus was not opposed to disciples carrying weapons. Do the notes in the Ecumenical Study Bible attempt to refute this as well?

    Note: I have no interest in debating anything religious on this forum, with anyone. I respect the wishes of those who come to this forum for gun-related issues, and not for religious issues. I only interjected religious comments in this post due to the topic of the OP, and because I feel strongly about carrying in church, which I do every week. Now pardon me while I go research the next 4 guns I want to buy.

  5. #34
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Grady-

    The only reason I brought up the study bible is to illustrate that many very learned, very earnest religious scholars disagree with your interpretation of the passage you quoted, and that there is no way for Grandpa C to know if quoting scripture to his pastor is going to score him points or not. That is why I recommended he stay away from scripture and just stick with plain old simple logic & stats.

    Having said that, and without revealing how I interpret any portion of the Bible (since this is definitely not the place for that discussion), I do want to say that my reading of the Gospels in no way leads me to believe that Jesus demanded his followers to be either disarmed or pacifists. Basically I agree with what you stated 100%. I just don't know that your suggestion was the best way to achieve Grandpa C's stated goal.

    Enough religion talk for tonight - I too will now go back to drooling over pictures of the next 2 or 3 guns I wish to purchase. Though I might have to sell more than my coat to afford them
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Dang,

    Yeh, I see your point that if many in Christendom don't view that portion as I do, then perhaps it's not the best approach to use it for the OP's pastor.

    Then I guess he has a quandry of whether to ask and risk a no, or not ask and protect himself and those he loves. Same quandry I face every week, but I've made my decision. Maybe someday I'll be brave enough to ask.

    Edit: Oops, reread OP--he already asked.

  7. #36
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    I thank you all for the input so far. I attend a United Methodist Church. In Mich. you have to get permission from the church. I figured I had to ask, seeing as our cheif of police is a member of the church, and he does show up once in a while. I haven't had the meeting with our pastor yet. He is a new pastor, we are his first church. I have read the pasages quoted. I am one that likes to read the pasages before and after. When I do have a question about a pasage, I do check other versions, I typically use a Life Applacation New Living translation, but also have an oxford, good news, NRS, NKJ, and a few others I have used. I keep them all for references.
    "If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the heck do I have to be paranoid about?" Clint Smith, director, Thunder Ranch

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    My pastor snorted when I asked him, and said, "Of COURSE you should carry! Your JOB is to protect the innocent!" And the covenant with which we established our church (signed by all households) directly addresses pacifism as unbiblical and promotes the protection of the innocent.

    Of course, we're a scrappier bunch than many. You might check out some Reformed Presbyterian churches in the area (Presbyerian Church of America, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Dutch Reformed, and Federation of Reformed Churches come to mind). You may find kindred souls there.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array ridurall's Avatar
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    I know of several preachers that own guns and actively carry them. The preacher that married my wife and I also carries a handgun. There is no reason a church should be defenseless in this day and age of extremist and crazies of all sorts out there. Here in Oklahoma the Church has to mark the property as a no carry zone (ghost buster gun sign). Otherwise it's no problem. I've never seen a church around here with a sign on the door.
    Life member NRA since 1983
    I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II in a Crossbreed SuperTuck. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.

  10. #39
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    In Hebrew the literal translation of the Sixth Commandment is: You shall not commit a murder. (a lot different than kill)

    Tell your Pastor that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away!

    Tell him God has called you to be a sheep dog!

    Read to him about the Bowl and Trumpet Judgments in Revelation... by then he might be ready to go get his own permit!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa C View Post
    I thank you all for the input so far. I attend a United Methodist Church.
    Grandpa C,

    That means it could go either way. Our Annual Conference (FL) has a recommended employee handbook (including pastors) which says nothing about carry. (That's good.) But the Book of Resolutions, approved by the General Conference, says every church should be a weapon-free zone. (That's bad, but not a legal mandate.)

    You might feel out your pastor's stance on the issues by talking about the recent shooting at a Polynesian church, where they seemed to target the pastor and leadership. What would he see as the best line of defense? How does he think the church should handle something like that? Or, you might talk about hunting (if you hunt) and see how he feels about that. Either might give you some insight into where he is likely to be.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  12. #41
    Member Array Kevan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    But the Book of Resolutions, approved by the General Conference, says every church should be a weapon-free zone.
    Don't that just bless your heart?

    I'd like to second the earlier suggestion that bringing up Scripture is probably not a good idea. He'd probably concede readily that an off-duty policeman should carry to church. He just needs to see how the same logic would apply to a responsible non-LEO citizen.
    I went to buy some camouflage pants, but I couldn't find any.

  13. #42
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    Ask him if the church has fire insurance? Fire extinguishers? First aid kit anywhere in the building? All of these are tools to use in case of an emergency. So is your gun. Explain that you carry it everywhere it is legal to do so and you pray never to need it!
    I have been driving cars for over 35 years and have used my jack and spare in an emergency only twice. I still intend to carry both, even though the odds seem to favor my not needing it. I have carried a pistol daily for over 30 years and have never had to use it (outside of the military). I hope those trends continue, but I am prepared for the worst.
    You might discuss safety of the parishoners if a situation like the recent church shootings should take place. What is his plan for such an event? Has the leadership of the church even considered such eventuality?
    Lots of good things to discuss. The verses about the two swords carried by the Apostles, when examined critically, lends itself to an explanation of common military practice of the day (and still valid) of placing an exterior guard - posted with the outer circle of defense, and an interior guard - posted with the inner circle. We know Peter had one sword, as he used it. The other was most likely with one of those left with the outer group. The concept being to show that Christ was not taken away by force, he had the proper security to warn and defend, rather he went voluntarily.

  14. #43
    Member Array abuttermilk's Avatar
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    First of all; Don't ask!! If it is concealed, only you and the Good Lord will know.
    Second; The Bible says that as the father and husband of my family, I am in charge of the safety and security of my family.
    Third; The Supreme Court has ruled the police are not here for your protection so,,,,,,, the burden falls upon you as the head of your house and as a person.
    Better to have survived and saved many and be questioned, than to be dead.

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    A church I attended previously had several armed policemen on duty for every service. Is your church willing to pay for that?

    I wasn't carrying at the time, and CCW was new to our state then, so I have no idea of that church's CCW policy. But likely they would have said no based on the policemen being present.

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevan View Post
    Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    But the Book of Resolutions, approved by the General Conference, says every church should be a weapon-free zone.

    Don't that just bless your heart?
    Well, it actually ticks me off. Not the first or only thing in there that does. But that is for another board/discussion.

    Some great suggestions and thoughts.

    Y'all are the best.

    Grandpa C, let us know what you do, and what happens.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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